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Public Works Minutes 1997 01-03-97 (Special) SPECIAL MEETING REGARDING THE CANNONBALL WATER& SEWER ISSUE YORKVILLE CITY CONFERENCE ROOM FRIDAY, JANUARY 3, 1997 - 10:00 AM Attendees: Representing Dave Kisser Cannonball Trail Residents Lisa F. Rauch Cannonball Estates John J. Williams Cannonball Estates . Bob Johnson, Mayor City of Yorkville Joe Wywrot City of Yorkville Kathy Jones City of Yorkville Thomas Javorik Cannonball Estates Mike McCoy Cannonball Estates J.T. Johnson City of Yorkville Jim Nanninga City of Yorkville Jim Liggett Cannonball Trail Residents Mike Bohr Cannonball Estates R.W. Lindley Lindley& Sons, Inc. Nanninga stated that the purpose of this meeting was to try to get all the technical groups together. Jones stated they should each introduce themselves, and that followed. Nanninga stated the City would like to keep this on a technical basis, and look at all the information as there seemed to be two issues. The one real issue is have we impacted water table elevations in the ground water. One, as it relates to wells, and#2 as it relates some ponds that exist. Bill Lindley did some work for us a number of years ago looking at the pond situation, and since then there has been a number of borings and information, big rains, not so big rains. Bob Johnson stated also the 7/17/96 rain. Nanninga stated what we would like to do is share all the information. Joe Wywrot our City Engineer is going to be like Solomon, and he is going to take all this information and put it into a report and a recommendation to our Planning Commission, so Joe has the big responsibility of putting all this information together. Joe, I know you have done a survey, did you get anything back from the residents on Cannonball Trail from the survey? Wywrot stated yes. We distributed 53 questionnaires, and we have gotten back 9 so far. Of the 9 we have gotten back, one of them stated they had problems with the wells, of the other 8, some make reference to problems during construction of the line, but the wells are pumping adequately now. Kisser stated that you will probably be receiving a number of those for a couple of weeks down the line, as people are away. Bob Johnson stated yes, we should allow for that, and asked Joe what kind of wells are these, are they shallow? Wywrot stated it varies, I've got Mrs. Bazan's whose is 22' deep, and then we've got several that are several hundred feet deep. Bob Johnson stated then they are into the lower strata? Wywrot stated right, and some of them are talking about sulfur in the water, that it hardens the water. Nanninga stated... Joe, some other information, we found some of the original borings from before we did our sewer project, has that all been given to Bill? Wywrot stated he didn't know. The 94 report indicated you did not have that information. Lindley stated he had all of that. Wywrot stated interestingly one of the respondents who got back already indicated he thinks the ground water is high enough, and was -2- complaining about it. Bob Johnson asked about the one with the 22'well. Wywrot stated that sometimes they can't get any water out of it at all, very bad quality, odor, for all intents and purposes it is not functioning. J.T. Johnson stated that they have been dealing with that particular well since we did the project and they have had problems off and on, and we have supplied them with drinking water and made an offer to them now to hook onto City water. Bob Johnson stated we have made that offer to everybody. J.T. Johnson stated the City made that offer to everyone, but this one has been going on for some time. They have been off and on, some days their water was working fine, and then other days it was completely black, or blackish and some very orange. Marla Harkins who is on city water now, had the same problem. It was the same thing, a shallow well, and she came off the sandpoint well and is on city water. I haven't seen the Bazan house, but if its anything like Marla Harkin's, her bathroom was entirely orange, the brightest orange I have ever seen. He shower room was dark orange and red, and her sinks were all that color. Jones asked where the two houses lie, are they close to each other. J.T. Johnson stated fairly close, Marla is, I believe Bazan is right as you go in to the subdivision, and Marla Harkins is probably less than a quarter of a mile on the right, on the same side. Lindley asked if there were houses in between them.. J.T. Johnson stated he thought there was one. Wywrot stated he was not sure. Kisser stated he thought it was the one next to it. JT. Johnson stated he thought there was one in the space between them, but maybe not. Kisser stated that Bazan's has got the same characteristics, but you don't see the color in the dishwasher, or washing machine. J.T. Johnson stated everything was orange, terribly. Lindley asked if this was throughout the system or was this just for raw water. J.T. stated just raw water to his knowledge. Wywrot stated that many people have softeners. J.T. stated Bazan had complained to them for some time, that they had literally no water, and what did come out had of course the blackish color and generally the sulfur and probably some lime, you're bound to get some of that. Lindley stated these were both shallow wells? J.T. state yes Marla's was, and Bazan's. Lindley stated and by shallow you mean less than 50 feet? J.T. stated sandpoint, yes. Lindley stated did I hear 22' deep? Wywrot stated yes 22 feet deep with water depth 13' was installed in 1965. Lindley stated I would think that in that well the water depth would vary greatly from day to day even, whether it was wet or dry, and in dry periods it's level is going to be down and it's pumping level. Wywrot stated that they are indicating that they have raised five children here and had no problem with water. Bob Johnson asked if there was a date to be returned on those surveys. Wywrot stated no,just as soon as possible. Kisser stated that some residents were leaving town, and who knows how long they will be gone. Nanninga stated that as Bill had done the initial study, the City was looking to update that with any new information. Lindley stated that their study was accomplished with two pits, one was over the sewer lines and one was East of the sewer line, or between the sewer line and the creek. Water is moving toward that water course in the ground, that is the way it goes, that is the way the land slopes, that is the way the high ground water moves through the granular material that is in there, there is no question that is water movement, people know that. And the water in this particular area in the lets say the A horizon, B horizon area is strictly rain water, if you get a lot of rain you get a high ground water table. If it doesn't, you get a low ground water table. And it is within a week or so of the rainfall that you'll see this, simply water percolating into the ground and moving toward the water course. And I don't think anybody disputes that, even the residents there. Shallow water- shallow wells, they're undependable, or at least not as dependable as a deep well, something that goes down and goes into the rock and that has an -3- elevation that is lower than the water in the water course. And that has got to be. Now, it would seem to some people that the installation of the sanitary sewer would disturb things, it will, development will disturb things, but these are things that as far as I have been able to understand in Illinois drainage law, and I am not an attorney, I don't even want to think about it, but I work with a lot of attorneys who deal in drainage law, and there is nothing in the Illinois law. The Illinois laws are relatively silent about it. If you go out West they have books on ground water movement, and ground water interception, and so forth because the water is so scarce. But in this area of the country and State of Illinois, the laws are relatively silent on ground water, in other words, if I dig a well a mile away from your well, and I dig it deeper, and I pump harder, and I steal some water from your source, that's just part of life. The draw down characteristics of the wells in this area are, shallow wells especially, the ones that are in the upper area are simply dependent upon precipitation within a week or a month of the time that you are going to use the water. For fresh water, and you want that, and the movement of that water. The water movement through the soil is dependent upon the granular configuration of that soil, and I don't have any specific knowledge of that right now. Sure, if there are some soil samples and soil borings in the area that people have taken and done a grain analysis, then you can start looking at water movement, the lateral water movement in the soil. And that will be one of the things I will have to do. You look at this thing and then you go to the point that has been established for ground water movement and determine draw down characteristics of the wells that are involved and then determine whether that, if there was interception of the ground water by the sanitary sewer what effect that would have if any on the adjacent wells. In other words, that is common language between engineers, but what it amounts to is the surface piezometric head of water in the soil increases as you go further away from the well. In other words, if the water is 20' deep, 20 ft. away from that well the ground water is probably, (and you pump it dry to the bottom of the well), then 10' feet away from the well the water surface of the piezometric point, at that point may be 20' below the ground. You get further away it may be 10'below the ground, and further away it may be only 5 or 3'below the ground, and if you go far enough away into the fields that are West from Cannonball, you will see water on the surface after a rain. That is ground water, it just hasn't gotten there yet. And the ground water will seep into the ground and disappear and then move toward the water course. And that is something you have to know a little bit more about the soils than I know right now, to get some idea about how that occurs, or how that should occur. That is some of the concerns that I have is the wells, as Joe has explained, are at different levels and a person that is next door to a person with a 22' well could very easily pump that well dry if he has a well that is 50' deep or a 100' deep. Wywrot stated the idea of the survey was to isolate problem areas. Nanninga asked Wywrot what information he had that he could get to Bill. Lindley asked...did that include sieve analysis, grain size and so forth? Kisser stated that at that time they did that, we got a verbal description. Lindley stated I would like to see a natural sieve analysis. That would be critical to determining grain size to be able to determine transmissibility, if that's a good word. Wywrot stated we have water levels. Bob Johnson stated he was very naive in this field, I've never had a well as I've always been on city water But, for the house along Cannonball, they can drill a 100'well if they so desire, and the person next to you can drill a 22' well and there is no regulation or anything on how far you should drill your well or anything like that. Kisser stated that he thought that now there were some regulations, and I am certainly not familiar with what the permitting procedure that would -4- allow or discourage. McCoy stated that a 22'well would not be allowed today. Lindley stated no, you could not do that. J.T. Johnson stated that the well driller couldn't do that, but the homeowner could do it themselves. Lindley stated today there are more regulations on how deep you should drill a well. Kisser stated and there are set backs between wells in the codes, state codes. Lindley stated there are permit requirements, but as far as whether one person can dig a well 100' deep and the well next door is 200' deep, no not that I know of Kisser stated but there are minimums. Lindley stated now there are requirements, you have to keep out the overburden, you have to go down deep enough to get good quality water and you have to case the water that is perked above that, you have to case it out, you have to put a steel casing in and put your well inside of that. J.T. Johnson stated they have found a lot of farm chemicals in the last 10 years they have been studying it pretty heavy, and these shallow sand points have been found to have a lot of farm chemicals. Bob Johnson stated, who regulates that, the County? J.T. Johnson stated the Public Health. Bob Johnson stated they are probably administered by the County. J.T,. Johnson stated, Phyllis could tell you more on that. McCoy stated today you could not have a 22' well, to build a house, by code you could not have a 22'well. J.T. Johnson stated No they wouldn't allow you to, if fact they must have some other regulations. I have a sister in Plattville that has a shallow well, and Phyllis made her take samples. Or they had it restructured or something, but they made them take samples on it, and the sample didn't pass and they had to re-clorinate and take samples, it took them quite a while to get a good sample. And, this was completely private, and it was her own well, and that surprised me because I didn't know the Public Health did get involved in that everyday, like the City will. Lindley stated there are a lot of concerns today about permitting private wells that didn't exist 10 or 20 years ago. We have the same problem at our farm as it is a dairy farm and anything in the water goes right into the milk. McCoy stated that these very shallow wells like this 22'well are experiencing the kind of problems that the new code would prohibit. Lindley stated I don't think I would like to have that water. I know too much about it. If I were these people, the first thing I would connect to City water if I could, or abandon that well and dig a deeper one, for their own health. Wywrot stated, J.T. You were here when the construction went on, was that not pretty well the entire construction through sand and sand like material? J.T. Johnson almost pure sand. Lindley stated, did you use a natural material for back fill, you didn't import anything? J.T. Johnson stated no, they did bed it with stone, but the soil was put back in the trench. Bohr stated, It seems to me that the only way that could have a permanent effect on a well across the street is if you put the sewer in and then replaced the fill with an impermeable material, clay or something to create a permanent area which I'm fairly sure that wasn't done. J.T. Johnson stated that some of the residents feel we have created too porous of an area, which allowed it to run down the ditch line rather than go over there, or divert it basically. Lindley stated that when we dug the ditch we found the water level above the sewer, and that is one of the things we have been talking about at the time to leave a pipe in there to monitor it, to have a piezometric monitoring well, so to speak. To determine whether in fact the ground water remained at or above the sanitary sewer, and it does. Kisser shows the developers map, and states that they went out to holes within several days after the borings, and tested some of the holes. Lindley asked if they had plastic pipe in the holes. Kisser stated no, they just measured the ground water. Lindley asked how they did that. Kisser stated with a ruler. Lindley stated he understood, but how did you measure down, did they have a pipe in the ground to tell where the ground water was. Kisser stated no, you could see it, -5- within several feet of the surface. Lindley stated, oh, they left the holes open. Kisser stated yes. Lindley asked how long they maintained that. Kisser stated that they only did that once or twice for the purpose of the meeting just for about 10 minutes long, and the holes collapsed. Lindley stated that is why he was asking. Kisser stated here is hole#6,7,9, I think and#10. In hole#6 we struck ground water at 6' and five days later it was 4.6'. In hole#8 there was approximately 7' and it was ?. Hole#9 was 11' , and it was ? . Hole#10 was very close to the excavation was at 11.5' and 5 days later there was none. We went out a couple of weeks later with a geologist. Lindley stated and the holes hadn't collapsed. Kisser stated a couple of them had, and we measured the ones that had not collapsed, and there was for that reason not a valid comparison to what we had done previously. Lindley stated that usually if you are going to do a monitoring job like this you put a piece of plastic pipe in. Kisser stated this represents ...........Lindley stated that is exactly what he would suspect. Kisser stated and the pipe line is right here. Lindley stated it has the draw down characteristics of a well or something. Nanninga stated yes this water is coming down to the creek. Lindley stated, yes, here is Blackberry creek, and here is Liggett farm. Kisser stated they feel this is the focus. We feel on the pipe line, this is the pipe line, and we feel that the ground water, it's natural movement is from West to East and it is being intercepted at least the top 18' - 20'by this excavation and when it hits the backfill material, and there is excessive backfill material because the contractor was concerned about frozen surface material, it was frozen in slabs about a foot and a half thick when he installed the thing, and he was worried about those heavy frozen plates falling down and crushing the lines, so he put extra bedding material in there, all the way along there when he backfilled it. So there is a lot of 1" and 2" stone in there to be used as bedding and it is pretty well washed gravel and we think that this water is going down that and its acting as a conduit and its probably going to the South where it goes ultimately, we don't know. Lindley stated number one the bedding is typical, and then 2 he is not going to over bed it because when he bid the project, he doesn't want to spend money recklessly. J.T. stated he did put in extra bedding stone in a couple of areas and that was because he ran into running sand and he had to have some kind of foundation underneath so he did put a lot of bedding stone in a those couple of areas. Lindley stated, did he point or well point, he had to keep water out of the trench, so you would be watering. J.T. stated that is what I recall, one of the residents down there I believe on Hickory, I'm not positive, we did supply him with bottled water and a tank of water which we kept supplied so they could shower because his well went dry. Lindley stated yes. J.T. stated that resident as soon as it was done, in fact we have a letter on file thanking us because his well came back and he didn't have any further problems. Nanninga stated, so if it is all granular and you put this pipe through, and put a little extra granular in, how could that impact the ground flow, I just don't follow. Kisser stated I don't know, and we didn't do enough, and we were not prepared at the time that we were doing this last Summer when the borings were done, to spend a huge ton of money on it to do an in depth study to find out what is happening out there, and there are a couple of reasons for that. First and foremost is that we don't think it is our responsibility to do that, ultimately it may become necessary, but at the time it was not our responsibility. Number two, I don't think it is reasonable to assume that there are twenty some residents or more all up and down Cannonball Trail area that would jump up independently and unknown to each other for the most part, and say that they have well problems that were cause by, that started at the time this utility was put in,just to get free water or something off the City. I don't think that is reasonable to assume. A lot of these people didn't -6- even know that their neighbors were having the same problems until weeks, months later, years in some cases when they started talking about it. These problems also as I say we don't fully understand it, and that is our premise here is that we think enough work needs to be done to fully understand it. These problems are intermittent as you are saying yourself, some people are reporting no problems, some people are reporting problems periodically, some people are reporting problems all the time, the problems have different characteristics. The one thing that they have in common is that they all seem to begin and in some cases within hours of the de-watering, and in a lot of cases within several days or a couple of weeks of the de-watering, but for the most part they appeared very soon after the utility construction began in that area. Lindley stated in other words there were no problems with shallow wells or anything, any drought, nobody had any problems what so ever, at least it wasn't reported. Kisser stated no, none that we know of, and if there were any problems, the problems that they are experiencing now are entirely different from what they had before. J.T. stated that what upsets me a little about that is the fact that we verbally talked to everybody that we could get our hands on, up and down Cannonball Trail. Our attorney sent out letters to the people up and down Cannonball Trail. Don Peck who used to be the City Engineer had sent out letters to everybody on Cannonball Trail and asked them for any information with any problems that they may have had, before or after and told them what we were doing, and throughout all of it and throughout all of it we received, I believe 4 letters of concern, and that was it. And then I start hearing that we have a lot of concerns out there, and the 4, I thought we dealt with as best we could at the time. Like the Bazan's we offered them water hook-up a long time ago, and at the time their well came back, and they said no, that is not a problem now the well was working, so we took it as not a problem. And of course it came back again and we tried to help them out. I think even they will admit we have bent over backwards trying to get this solved. Kisser as I say the problems are intermittent, in my well also, and mine is 323 feet deep and it is cased at 220', and mine is pumping air periodically, and that was really the only thing I noticed until about a month ago. I thought I was doing fine and then(I have an iron filter, and the reason I have an iron filter is it was on the system when I moved there. They put the iron filter in because they had had problems at their previous home and didn't want to deal with it, and put in as a safety measure. In 19911 got a free water softener and an iron filter, so he put it in. When we did that they did a field test and at the time the field test indicated that there was not enough iron in the water that would even require an iron filter. About a month ago, one of the valves started sticking and I thought is was grit or something, so called service technician, and disassembled the valve and in the process we ran a lot of untreated water directly out of the well, the sulfur smell like you wouldn't believe, that was never there before, and I didn't realize I had that problem because my water plant had been taking care of it. Also there wasn't any grit in the valves on the water filter head, they were all plated with iron that was never there before, so I have an iron filter that is currently taking care of the problem. J.T. stated just to let you know the City has two wells, both about 1400 feet deep and the whole state of Illinois is full of sulfur. Deep wells all have sulfur. Kisser stated the point is at the time I didn't have it in 1991 we ran a lot. J.T. stated if you are down 323 feet there is absolutely no way that ditch had any impact whatsoever on your water. Bohr stated and your casing goes to 220'. Kisser stated yes. Bohr stated do you know how deep to the top of the rock, to the bedrock r , -7- J.T. stated if he is down 300 and some feet deep the limestone, you hit the same peaks at around 600' - 700' in this area. I'm going to guess he may have caught the outcropping of the same peaks, or something. Kisser stated he had the boring log somewhere, he couldn't locate it in time for this meeting, but I don't believe that boring log indicated any rock, all un-consolidated. J.T. stated that if you went down 300 feet would have. Kisser stated that then why was it in 1991 when we ran all the water out of the well. J.T. It could be that it finally broke loose down below in the out cropping. Lindley stated when you say iron filter, what type of iron filter, is this an aeration device and then a filter. Kisser yes there is an aeration device and a granular material inside of it. The original one was. Lindley stated that the screen sand filter will take care of all your odor. An aeration , is it a sniffler, or is it just bringing water in, or bringing air in and oxidizing or is it actually discharging pre surface over some plates. Kisser stated no, its a device in the line, it siphons. Lindley stated that was a sniffler, and that, my experience has been relatively insufficient. The screen sand has the capacity, and the negative filters are the ones that kick out iron. That is why I'm wondering if that ... iron filter, I tell people if they are having problems with it, that's exactly what you have. Kisser stated mine is handling the iron, I have no iron at the facet. J.T. stated this is typically what happens in any well, this is what you had when you started in 1991 (drawing a sketch) as you pull the water out of there this sand and whatever you are into, limestone or whatever can break off and fracture and fall down to the bottom of the well, some you might even pump out. But if you break any edges in here and hit a vein of sulfur you will definitely start pulling more sulfur or whatever mineral that is down there. Kisser stated, but I'm not the only one, mine is just one of many that are experiencing the problem and they appear not to have been there before the installation of the utility. McCoy stated could this be a coincidence, aren't these problems that would normally show up in a well. Kisser stated twenty some coincidences, that is what I'm saying, I think there is enough evidence in the performance of the wells and in the field in the terms of the way the springs operate and the flow of ground water from West to East and actually a good percentage of it exits in the form of surfacing springs at the foot of the hills, of course a lot of it exits right a the creek. At my property I have three of those springs, one is right above the creek, one is on the flood plain about half way between the creek beds and the hill, and the other one is at the foot of the hill. The one at the foot of the hill, very un-scientifically,just from my feel, having lived there and watched the thing it has reduced the level by about half. The other two have stopped completely, and they stopped when that utility was put in and Have not started again. J.T. stated that there is one thing certain about ground water, and that is that it is uncertain. It will always take the easiest path, and I know what you are saying, and I have talked to some other residents who feel the same way, but ground water will always take the easiest path. The easiest granular material. Kisser stated you mean the easiest path down the trench. J.T. stated well it could be, I'm not going to argue that point, but by the same token, even if it did it is still traveling the other way too. You look at the topography out there, there is some greater area out there to the North of there, that rain water falls on, but wouldn't even be impacted by the ditch enough to bother, but it is going to travel toward that creek, it has to travel toward it. Kisser stated that is what we are saying, we don't understand exactly what the mechanics are, but we just feel there is a relationship here and we feel that our purpose is to, we think a lot more study has to be done out there to prove matter of factly that 50 or 100 sump pumps operating in the ground water here are not going to further aggravate the situation. This problem does not occur just with this piece of property, it occurs with that other -8- piece of property on the other side of Cannonball all the way down to #34. The same thing is going to come up there. Another piece of evidence that might indicate that water is in fact flowing down that excavation is in the area of Hickory Road, I'm sure you have noticed that there is that wet spot in the field right over the top of the excavation. The farmer that farmed that for better than twenty years says that that spot was never wet, but it is wet now. J.T. stated there is probably a broken field tile there. Kisser stated it is possible that there is water percolating up out of the ground. J.T. Stated no, that is another thing that we did do, is fix field tiles that were probably not working prior, and they are working now. Lindley stated did you keep a record of those filed tiles you intercepted. J.T. stated the contractors drawing, every time they intercepted they marked it down. Lindley stated that the thing he is concerned about is that if there is water flowing in the trench which is your theory, where does it flow to. J.T. stated that the only place it could flow to is the ditch line down by Joe Gilbert's, because that is where everything comes down to where it is only 5' deep. Jones stated what is the level of water there. Bohr stated, that little water way that you are talking about is fed basically by one tile that comes to the Northwest corner of our property and flows in a diagonal line directly toward that little drainage. In fact it outlets right into it. J.T. stated that what he was getting at that little ditch, the things on 34 at least half way over runs toward that ditch, and then Bohr's area runs toward that ditch so it is like two areas come to a ditch, like two sewer lines cutting across. Jones stated exactly where is this adjacent property at. Bohr stated immediately South, the Southeast corner. Wywrot stated right here, Faxon Road probably a quarter mile South. Jones stated wasn't he the individual who was saying that the level in his yard was low. J.T. Correct Jones stated, He was one at a planning Commission meeting where they were saying it was low. The only time he gets any water to sit in there is if we have a rain, excessive rain then it percolates into the ground, and it will run off, or if the water table because of Rob Roy Creek is high enough, because that whole area is underlayed with sand. J.T. stated he didn't know he had said that, because we went back in there and fixed 4 field tiles that cut across his property because the water was ponding there, and we put in all new pipe and ran it to the ditch so we could drain it all. Bohr state he was out there in August and at that time it was completely dry and two weeks later after we had some rain, I went out there and it runs for about a week-week and a half at a time, and it is fed by a tile, it is not a natural, it is not a spring feeding that thing. Bohr stated there is one other thing about field tiles and now we have ponding, I grew up on farms, and one problem we have with field tiles today is that if you look at the size of the equipment we are using today in the fields, it is 4 to 5 times the size it used to be. It is a tremendous problem, if you go out in rural America they are cutting new field tiles through these fields all the time because most of these clay tiles are probably 40 - 50 years old they were dug in, they are this deep in the ground and they are collapsed. These tractors weigh 40, 50 60,000 pounds vs. and old M that weighs, Lindley stated try an old horse. Bohr stated that is why they are having drainage problems, with these tiles, they are old clay tiles that are collapsing. ................Kisser stated there are no drainage problems on those fields, and that is the point is because of the character of the soil, the water moves freely and rapidly through that material, and that is why we feel it is a fairly delicate environment and doesn't take a lot to interrupt it. Bohr stated but are we really talking here, the problem is that if we do ask people who have well problems, shallow or deep, it is my understanding that the City has already offered for those people to hook onto the water mains. J.T. stated City water is available. Bohr stated I think we are just beating a dead horse. Kisser -9- stated, I just want to confirm, this is a copy I got from the City, and these are borings on Cannonball prior to, and these are two different boring agencies that di d the work. Along Cannonball here there are about 6 borings that roughly compare to these three and actually these two. There is a scale right here, it says 720 ft., that is 1420 ft. and this is over 1500, so that's got to come, this is basically our piece of property, and that boring, and that boring roughly coincide with that boring and that boring and that boring. These borings were done in June and these borings were done in April, three years apart. This is before the sewer and water, and this is after the sewer and water. As I recall this was a 16' depth compared to an 18' depth right here, this is actually higher, this one which was 6, I believe was maybe 10 or 12, same here 10 or 12, this one which was a foot and a half compared to about a four foot depth here, and I actually have that information here. So, in about 2/3 of them the water table was lower, and in 1/3 it was higher. And taken 3 months apart and three years apart. Kisser stated and again 4 days later after the borings it showed water in here and there was none in the fields. J.T. stated he questions that, and the only reason is because 11' deep hole in that sand and leave it over night and it is no longer 11' deep, it is going to fill in. Bohr stated and these are 20' deep and about 15' of it is sand, so by the time they pulled the bottom out of the thing about half of it was caved in. J.T. stated Bill Lindley was with us when we did the first holes, and one of the problems was we wanted to wait 4 hours and we couldn't because they were caved in. Bohr stated that is why we had them chart the water when they went down with this thing because I knew pretty much what we were going to get there, because I do excavation in Blackberry Creek North, and I was 99% sure we were going to get the same material. And I had them take these soil borings down 22' feet because I knew the sewer and water mains were approximately 17' at the deepest spot, so I wanted to be down below that so I knew what the characteristics of the soil were. Kisser stated could he get those. Jones before the project was started. 4/23/93. Bob Johnson stated Jim, I just want to be sure that all of the information we want Bill to consider be conveyed to him. Nanninga stated from Bill and Mike. Kisser stated that they were not able to secure the services of their engineer for today, the notice was just to short. Bob stated then possibly they could confer with in the future. Jones stated what about the report presentation that you gave before Plan Commission, do you have that in written text. Kisser stated that I couldn't tell you, and actually we have told him that other than the information that was presented to the Plan Commission we have advised him that he is not to release anything else. Jones stated that it is hard for us to research and for consideration, I thought that was valid information and good information, and I think we just need to share. Kisser stated it is all in the minutes of the Plan Commission. Bob Johnson stated that those minutes are very vague. Bohr stated the bottom line is that all they did with that is chart our soil borings, they have nothing to establish any previous ground water elevations, I mean we can do that, that is all they did, all they did was charted existing information, not previous information. They have nothing to compare, they have nothing to substantiate any of the claims that they have come in here with. Kisser stated what is the problem with all these wells then? Bohr stated the City has already made a step forward to help you people, Jeff Williams called you on two separate occasions, we wanted to come over, we wanted to see what the problems are, we are willing to help you. you don't want help. Kisser stated he asked if we could reproduce the problems and I told him no, that they are. Williams stated he asked if he could come over and observe the problems. Kisser stated and I said no. Williams stated and we asked Jim Liggett if -10- we could come over and look at his problems, no.. Your engineer is not available, no. As a matter of fact you specifically said you would not turn your engineer loose, you said you wouldn't do it because you might have to use him in litigation. Bob Johnson stated let me ask if there is a feasibility that your engineer and Joe can have dialog? Liggett stated he was interested to see what would come out about being quoted about my telephone conversation. Williams stated he asked if he could come over and see the problems with his pond and you said definitively, no. Liggett stated didn't I say something about that I couldn't do anything until after a certain date. That is all you said no. You discouraged me from looking at the problem. Kisser stated and I didn't tell you no, I just told you I couldn't reproduce the problem. Liggett stated I don't have a problem with discussing things, but I have a problem since you weren't in on the start of it, and you weren't in on the water thing. Williams stated well we are trying to work with you. Liggett stated we thought that it was not our job of our consultant to develop a plan for the development. Williams stated that was never asked of you, and what is he, what are his actual credentials. Bob Johnson stated he did not want to get into it a cat fight. Williams stated he understood. Bob Johnson stated the question he was asking right now is, is there an opportunity for your engineer to dialog with Bill. Liggett stated if it is not the plan that they are presenting to handle the water, then I would think not up to our community to even bother. If our engineer is supposed to go in and help work out the problem. Bob Johnson stated no, all I am saying is for what your engineer found, it is not an issue of paying for time. Liggett stated who wants to pay our engineer. Bob Johnson stated we are already paying for all of these engineers to be here. Bohr stated we are not making a nickel and we have $33,000. worth of all of this already. Kisser stated the graphics that have been presented are these, but there are only about 4 sheets. J. T stated that he could make copies but they were passed out previously at that meeting. Jones stated yes she thinks it was only to Plan Commission members at the time got those, I didn't get one as I was sitting on the side. J.T. A lot of it refers to verbal information, and if that wasn't taken down in the minutes, I don't know. Jones asked if we retain the tapes from those minutes, we could recall the tapes. Bohr stated What is the real issue here, if the real issue is that people have problems with their well, if that is the problem then we can address this a hundred different ways, we can sit here and theorize, and this and that, but that is not solving the problem. J.T. stated I don't think that to theorize, and I know we will get a report from Bill, but I've also been around ground water for some 20 years, and I know that if you have a well 100 feet deep, and cased 25' deep this ditch, and the ground water in that upper strata has no effect whatsoever on that well. I say that myself personally, from my own knowledge of ground water, I don't have the credentials to be a college graduate, to tell you I am a ground water expert, but I have dealt with it for 23 years, there is no way that this aspect of this, any of these lots, subdivision be dammed, I don't care about the subdivision. I'm more concerned with us putting the sewer and water in, and the bad press that the City can get because of doing the sewer and water. I guess where I get a little steamed is we're trying to solve a problem for the people that live out there, and when I hear that it is a deep well, and I know personally I can get experts from all over the country to tell me I'm right, that there is no impact by any of what we've got here on anybody that's got a well over 200'to 300' deep. Kisser stated you may be completely right,just this is unconsolidated material, what we are saying is that we don't understand what the relationship is, we think there is a relationship and what we are asking is that enough work be done to determine exactly what the relationship is. -11- J.T. stated all I need to do is go get all the geologists that I want to get from the U of I, and get all the ground water experts from throughout the entire United States and they will tell you that if you have a 300' deep well, and you are cased to 200', which I find kind of hard to believe, but if you are then you have no impact whatsoever. Bohr stated we have a well expert right here. McCoy stated if you have a rock well, that is a separate pool of water. Kisser stated that he doesn't think it goes through rock, I don't recall exactly. McCoy stated if your well is 300' deep then it goes through rock. Kisser stated as I said I don't recall. McCoy stated that, and that pool of water from that well is disconnected from the surface water, and deep quarries don't go deep enough. I'm almost sure there is an aqua pool that prohibits the downward flow of water, so there, to me, there is no scientific or geological reason, even when you have the de-watering wells in there, that they would impact the rock wells. Shallow wells are a different matter, a well 22' deep, I would think when you were de-watering, I would have expected them to go dry. J.T. stated they did. McCoy stated I can not think of any scientific reason why there would be any impact on the rock wells. Kisser stated perhaps you can explain the cause and effect, is this all a big coincidence. McCoy stated typically in a rock well, you are in a limestone well, all your water comes into your well through fractures in the limestone. If you hit a good spot you may have a lot of fractures, if you get a not so good spot the fractures are small, and over time those fractures fill in, and over time in 1970 you may have pumped a 10 gpm from 90 feet, in 1990 you're going to pump it from 120 feet because these fractures fill in with time and your pumping level is lower. That would explain why over time you begin to get sulfur, different layers of that rock are now exposed to air. They are not totally under water and sulfur will come out of those, and the other thing is why you see an increase of iron. Iron slim bacteria will fill in those part, the new parts of the rock that are exposed to air, so it is common, for your well, we have what we call a specific capacity in a well. That is gallons per minute, devided by the draw down. That naturally declines and continues to go down. Kisser stated that is fine but we are dealing with wells of all different depths here, and they are experiencing similar problems, some of them unique to that particular well and they all started at about the time of that. Williams stated I think we should deal with your problem Dave, Why don't we deal with their problems on an individual basis, lets deal with your problem. McCoy stated go back to the sewers, I'm sure you did infiltration, exfiltration tests J.T. Oh yes. McCoy we are talking about the bedding around it. That would have to be huge flow of water through that trench to have any effect at all on this. A huge flow of water down that trench. Lindley asked, where does it go? McCoy stated to effect it a foot a huge flow to even have 1 foot to effect the piezometric flow. Lindley stated that is what I asked, where does it go if it does follow the trench. McCoy stated that if it is somewhere dumping out and actually leaving the, being extracted from the ground, but I don't see that happening. This is a huge pool of water, a huge underground lake. J.T. Stated it isn't leaving the ground anywhere. It is not coming through at any of the ditches, it is not blowing out, down at our lowest level. Lindley stated, During the construction of the sewer, what kind of wells did they put in, where they sandpoint or were they actual wells. J.T. stated they ended up with sandpoint, but the had a hell of a time with them. Lindley stated did they jet them in or drill them. J.T. stated they drilled them. They put in pipe this big around, they trenched, Lindley stated, they had a sand screen on the bottom? J.T. stated they dug with the back hoe, and set them in, slotted pipe, and 3 or 4 10 horse power pumps going all the time to clear that water out. McCoy stated and when that was done they should have come back to normal. J.T. One of the people that had a problem, and I -12- don't have the letter with me, so I can't tell you his name right now, but we did suck him dry, and he called the day we got to his area, and he had no water whatsoever. We went out and set him up with a tank, we filled it with City water and set him up with a pumping rig, the whole thing, and gave him bottled water to drink, and set him up with his own little system until we go by. Once we got by him his well came back, and he sent us a letter thanking us for all the work we did. It was the dead of Winter when we did this. Kisser stated yes he thought it was the first house on Hickory. J.T. stated he feels for those people with a sand point, his own house is on a sand point. I think I'm 25' down, but I have good water, I'm in a creek bed, but I also know the farm chemicals I'm exposed to. I don't even want to tell my family. I would much rather it was a deep one. Lindley stated I probably said no, but I have to do some more work on, . where does the water go? If this trench is conveying water that normally moves from West to East to the creek, to a North to South direction along Cannonball, where does that water go. Have you done anything to, lets say put in a piezometric well, like when I said I wish could have put a pipe in there when we dug this ditch, drill a hole, put a pipe in there and monitor them over a year, you don't monitor for a few days, if you don't do it you where you can't actually see the water or put a string on a cork and measure it and determine what happens to that water over a period of time. I did this in Oak Brook for a year before we designed the two ponds in the McDonalds headquarters, and we spent a year monitoring the water levels, we had someone out there every week measuring because we were putting in a 70' deep 48" sanitary sewer. We were pumping over a million gallons a day out of our well to put this sewer in. I said it would take a year for it to come back, it took 1 year for this to come back and after that we have had no problems. So it isn't something that can't be predicted. I can't figure out where the water is going, if it is moving in that trench it has to go somewhere. Kisser stated that is what we have to find out. Lindley stated one of the important things I heard today, is that seeps on your property stopped and they haven't started since the construction. Kisser stated it is the same with Liggett, and a number of others on the base of that hill. Williams stated I thought that would be good, wouldn't that be good? If I had water seeping onto my property and it stopped wouldn't that be good? Lindley stated well not if you were using that water for some purpose. Watering horses, or you had dug a pond there. But, I want to find out if there is someone along that line who is receiving more water through their seeps. Where is it going is it being transferred 100 or 200 feet from an area of limited flow to an area of high velocity, high transmitability and then be taken to the creek. It has to be going someplace, and you have got to document where it is going. The only way you can do this is to set an piezometric well and measuring the level of water in those piezometric wells over a period of time. You have to determine what is causing the fluctuation, if you look in the soil manuals it says that seasonal high ground water, that is a characteristic of these soils. Well what is the Season? Winter, Summer, Fall, I can't tell you. I don't know. Is it occurring or dependent upon precipitation. That means you have to have some idea of when it rains, how long it rains, and how much it rains, whether the water runs off, the field that is West of Cannonball has depressions in it, that is where you are going to build this subdivision I believe. Bohr stated their land is almost flat, there are no depressions and no water stands on it for more than a couple of hours after a rain fall. Lindley stated that is exactly what he is getting at, it has the ability to percolate water down into the ground water table, and you have to look at where this water goes once it has percolated. If you go far enough West then the water starts running toward another watershed, or at least it should, and these are things you have to look at, document and explain. -13- When we dug the two pits out there I was confident that we would see a difference in the water between the two pits, and when we came back after about 4 hours, when it started to cave in I had sent a crew out there with an instrument that could measure a difference of elevation within 100th of an inch, we found that there was a difference of elevation in those two pits and you could spit between them. So the ground water is definitely moving from West to East, but it could be at different locations along Cannonball South of Faxon, that there are some areas where the transmissibility of water toward the creek is very high, and then intercepted in between there where the transmissibility from the land to the creek could be very low. That is why I'm saying you have to have some kind of sand sieve analysis to determine the grain size of the material in the borings that were taken. Kisser stated that a comprehensive study needs to be done, this problem is going to keep cropping up with land North and South of this development. This development has little to do with this situation other than its potential to aggravate it. Lindley stated that one of the problems you are going to find with the subdivision is that I imagine that Yorkville will require some kind of storm water management. Blackberry creek North of here, a friend living 1 mile& a half from BB Creek and he got 4' of water in his living room. I would have never guessed he was in a flood plain. These are things that have to be. Kisser stated that the rain storm in July there was a lot of water standing in the field where this development. Bohr stated there was no water standing in the field, I went out there. I live in the heart of 17", and I figured if there would be any water stand, it would be, and I went out there at 4pm. Kisser stated the rain quit before morning and the water was standing took 20 hours to drain. I'll show you photos. Bohr stated it may have puddled for a short period, but there are no wash outs in that field. Lindley stated we have to obtain some additional information about the soil conditions in that area along Cannonball and determine the transmissibility in the soil so we can document it. You will want to know more bout the ability of the soil to transmit water laterally toward the creek. Bohr stated let me ask you three questions. How long will it take. What will it cost. And, who is going to pay for it. Lindley stated it would probably take 6 moths to a year. The cost will be in the neighborhood of$20,000. to $30,000. Bohr stated that is not in our cost budget or in our time frame either. Is there other ways, it sound like the problem we are having is well water. J.T. Bill has not seen all of the information, like the borings in 93 and until he has looked at that and studied what we have on file. Bob Johnson stated Joe need to go over what we have currently and see what Bill needs after that. Kisser will that information be made available to our Hydrologist? Bob Johnson stated and your Hydrologists could provide information to Bill too. Kisser stated well I think what Bill said is that you have to look at how fast, and where that water will go, and no development should be built until it is sure it won't cause any more problems. Lindley stated you can spend any amount you want, but when it comes to trying to predict ground water movement, it is anybody's good educated guess as to where the problem is and what is causing the problem. Rauch stated that they have made an interesting point. From the developers stand point, the subdivision or the development has little to do with the problem right now. The concern from the developers stand point it is how if any it will impact or create any additional problems. So from the developers point of view what we should be looking at is how can the developer develop this property without aggravating this condition. Kisser stated and I don't think that can be done understand what the situation is. Rauch stated and simultaneously working on a solution to the problem, so if there is a way either through storm water management or what have you, create a continuous flow as to what comes next. Kisser stated just for the sake of -14- discussion, if our theory is correct and the upper levels of that strata being dewatered by that trench then if they put detention ponds all over that subdivision, or whatever you do to the water conservation through detention. If water falling on that field now has no effect on the wells, V of water falling on that development retained is possible that it will have no effect. Rauch stated but it is not going to aggravate the situation. Kisser stated maybe it will and maybe it won't, if you are doing further de-watering by virtue of sump pumps that may further aggravate the situation. The problem is that if you don't understand exactly what is happening out there and that is what we are saying. You need to do enough work out there to find out what the situation is. J.T. stated that what bother him is that we have 2 wells here in town that are 1400 feet, and I have no right to go to Minnesota and Wisconsin where the water falls on the ground and by the time it finally reaches us down here I have no jurisdiction or right to tell them not to put in a road, or a development, sewer, or the many things they put in. All of the growth there is going to happen, and I don't personally believe, as the City has made an offer to the residents in that area to get their water, and in my own mind they have bent over backwards to try and resolve all of this, and I believe it is a moot point. The ground water has no bearing on this whatsoever, as far as I'm concerned, and I believe there are a lot of residents out there who don't want to see the houses out there, and that I can understand, I live in a rural area myself, and I would like to see nothing but beautiful homes, but I don't think this is a ground water problem. Kisser and obviously I don't speak for all the residents out there but the ones I have spoken to have no particularly objection to the houses if it is done right, and that is another issue. The comment that Bill made about water case law, we have cause to have a little research done on that and I think there is case law in Illinois that says that if you are punching a well into the ground and tapping the same water that your neighbor is, and you pump a whole bunch more than he does, and you dry up his well, you are right. Everybody has as much right to water pumped from wells as anyone. But there is also a lot of case law that deals with the interruption of and use of ground water by simply structure, doing construction. We are not talking about the interruption of flow of water for 100 wells, we are talking about the interruption of water by virtue of construction projects, has nothing to do with tapping for use. Bohr stated this is an engineering problem, we can do studies till the cows come home and have nothing absolutely definitive is going to be nailed down. Kisser stated that well you are talking about 109 sump pumps. Bohr stated first of all there are not going to be 109 sump pumps in the water table. Most of the water table is down below the basement level, and even if we were we could design a storm line system and use our detention area as a recharging pond where. Does everybody think that as soon as a sump pump kicks on all this water evaporates and just disappears. It doesn't it either runs off into the ground and re-percolates or we are taking it and controlling it and it is channeled into a designated area. This is an engineering problem. Kisser stated it is going down that trench, everything you re-charge is going to go down the trench. Bohr stated then we can block the trench if that is the problem. Kisser stated good point and I say that with tongue firmly in cheek, lets pump that trench full of bentonite every 50' or so and create a bunch of dams in there and force the water to cross to the East. McCoy stated that would create a problem, if you create a wall there that would have well problems. Kisser stated that is why I said that with tongue in cheek, because that is the kind of solution to prevent that water from going down that trench if that is what is happening, how do you do that. Bohr stated that the bottom line is that the people across the street do have access to good water, we are not denying you water. There is a water main right -15- across the street. The City of Yorkville has already agreed to let anyone who has these type of problems tie into the water main. Kisser stated that I think you will find a number of the people, and again I'm not speaking officially for anybody on that side of Cannonball, but the jist of the conversation seems to be. Is this how the City of Yorkville generates funds? You go out and ruin my well that was working just fine, and now you want to sell me water. J.T. stated that is not the kind of thing. When you go in for a repair on a well it will cost you more than the City water will cost in 5 years. Kisser stated that is what the sentiment is. Bohr stated that my well went down, and unknowingly the City of Aurora ran their water main right through my front yard without an easement. I could have had the City of Aurora come out and repair my well for nothing, or I could hook onto the City water supply. It was a no brainer because it costs money to maintain a well, and the City of Aurora gave me a new water supply. If you have bad water and with the shallow wells out there sooner or later you are going to have to deal with this problem. These wells are inconsistent, who would want ground water in an agricultural area. Look at the things that are coming off your roads. Kisser stated that I don't have specifics better than half of these wells are probably deep wells. Bohr stated that if they are deep wells then it has already been established by an experts here that it is not a problem. It is not a problem with the City of Yorkville, and it is certainly not our problem. We are dealing with ground water here, and ground water is simply an engineering issue. We have to satisfy the City of Yorkville with our ground water management,just like anybody else. Any other subdivision in the area. Kisser stated well then the upshot of this meeting is that all of those residents out there who are complaining about there wells are liars, and they are trying to. J.T. stated I've only seen two, I would like them to send some letters. You are the only one that says they are complaining. Kisser stated there was a letter signed by 18 homeowners a registered letter to the City. J.T. I've never met any of these people, I would like to know who they are. Jones stated there are about 12 letters and some are different letters at different times. Kisser stated this is one with about 18 signatures on it. Bob Johnson stated are they all Cannonball Trail?Kisser stated some are Faxon, and there were 2 or 3 who are off Cannonball. Bohr stated is one of them Mr. Hain that lives about 3/4 mile away from our project and in the swamp. J.T. stated and also Dan Kranz who also lives up there. Bohr stated those people have nothing to do with us. J.T. stated well I can't say they have nothing to do with it, but where you are yes. Lindley stated are there any new wells along there. J.T. stated the newest was would be the one along near 34, Wadsworth, about 15 years old. Bohr stated so what are we doing. Wywrot stated let him get the surveys done. Lindley stated he would be interested in the number of people who have complained and the depth of their wells. Kisser stated he had another meeting he was going to be late for. Nanninga stated and Mike, we will keep you informed of any surveys so you both have a good feel for progress. Give it to both experts and to Joe, he will be our lead person. Lindley stated that when the subdivision goes in are you doing anything additional? Like put in additional storage or supply or anything like that. I would like to think a little bit about the soil conditions out there, and get some kind of analysis, maybe even do some boring with a sieve analysis so we can get some idea of the transmissibility of the soil. Nanninga stated would you get with Joe on what you need. Lindley stated give me all the information you've got and I'll tell you if I need anything else. McCoy stated what would you think of an odometer on either side of the sanitary sewer, that would tell you right there if there are any cone or depressions coming through. Lindley that's fine, and I have one other suggestion, I would sure want to have some recorded wells from within -16- that subdivision. Where you have a 4" shallow well put down to lets say 2 - 3 feet below basement depth, pump it and prime it out for transmissibility of the water, maybe a 30'well and two satellite wells where you would pump the one well and determine the draw down that existed in the ground water, so you didn't get into a situation like Naperville, with sump pumps running all the time. That is a problem with high ground water and houses with basements, the sump pumps are running all the time. Nanninga stated the City did do some wells a few years ago, but if we can't find them, are you suggesting three on the other side of the road. Lindley stated we can talk about that. The money is in recording the data, but if you have a crew to do that every Monday morning. Bohr stated how long does that take. Lindley stated a Season (3 to 6 months) to record precipitation and apesiamestic, depending on how much it rains. Jones stated this development is on Plan Commission next week, do we need to pull it. Nanninga stated we won't have the answers to all of this by then. Rauch stated is it possible to get a conditional approval or some resolution to this so we can start the process. Nanninga stated that if we chase this thing down and find out it has moved a 100 feet over, do we actually go down and put dams in and move it back to where it was. I hate to do that because then it has all kinds ????, I hate to put that on our backs. Rauch stated but if this is a ground water issue, then the majority is an engineering issue, can we get engineering approval. Nanninga stated there are still issues on the plan. Rauch stated that is a separate point, if it is truly an engineering issue then the plan itself will not change dramatically, so if we can get the plan approval subject to engineering approval. Nanninga stated that we told the Plan Commission that the issue with the storm water had nothing to do with the development, and they said we don't care, deal with it first anyway. So the reality is, it doesn't work. Rauch stated well we are moving in that direction now, and we are not going to stop, the Plan Commission is just one step in a lengthy process. It will be Spring before whole plan approval. Jones stated they would have to physically separate these issues, and I don't know if they can do that. Nanninga stated that they need to wait until February's Plan Commission on this issue. Bill and Mike can look at all the data we have and take what ever piezametric reading we have and at least get a preliminary. But, you should still come because there is still and issue of access to Cannonball, and road issues and you should still be there. Jones stated you just won't ask for a vote. Nanninga stated Yes, that would be my suggestion. Bohr stated even after we do all of this is we are still dealing with an engineering problem, so if we collect enough information so we know which direction we need to go to solve the problem. I don't think anybody is conceding that the problem is not solvable. Nanninga stated assuming there is a problem. Bohr stated surely we can engineer around it, I doesn't want this becoming a stumbling block, and after 3 or 4 months saying it can't be solved, Mike and Jeff go away. Lindley stated this is Kendall, not DuPage, that can make all the difference in the world. Bob Johnson stated until you have the knowledge that it can be solved you cannot go any further, so waiting an extra month is not that much. Bohr stated that he and Jeff are not going to impact the problem, and they are going to try to help, and we can be their best neighbor in a lot of respects. We come to Yorkville as responsible developers. We have spent a lot of money, and fees, and have put a good foot forward showing the direction they are going. Williams stated it seems to me that the City of Yorkville has said through it's Comprehensive Plan has that they would like to grow in the direction of Cannonball, and it seems to me that you shouldn't isolate your study if you are going to do it at all to our piece of property, why don't you do the whole area. And, if you are going to do the whole area and you want that to be your new City, then I don't think its our expense. -17- Wywrot stated, we are just looking for some answers here, I don't think it is going to be a large cost. Bohr stated he needed to know what the cost is going to be. If you are using this area for a test area, and if you find no variations, are you going to say it is inherent of the whole area? Bob Johnson stated I agree that we are not just talking about this development, what is going to come down the road, and that whole piece on Eldamain Road is something we are going to have to know, and the Plan Commission is going to have to know. Whether it is this development or another development it is the same issue. Wywrot stated what type of monitoring well are we talking, a two inch? Lindley stated yes a two to three inch of plastic pipe. I will send you some information on how and where to put it in. Nanninga stated I would like to include Mike, Bill and the three of you. Lindley stated and then you look it over, and see if it has been thought out correctly. I have had that thing from Herrin for a year„ and I haven't even looked at it, because I have been to busy. Kisser stated I wonder if we should know as it goes along, the progress at an appropriate point. Nanninga if anyone has any questions, I know there were some of Mr. Liggett, get it to Joe if you would and it will be included in the study, otherwise we will just have to go without it. Kisser stated, and well data for instance, we researched well data as best we could and with the State, I think there are only 8 of those wells who have records on file with the water survey, and the rest are going to be on file with individual drillers if they maintain records, and who knows what they are. A lot of people just don't know what their wells are. Minutes by: dy Ma ker