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Plan Council Minutes 1999 10-05-99 UNITED CITY OF YORKVILLE Committee Minutes - Plan Council October 5, 1999 Meeting Location: 111 W. Fox St. Time Convened: 9:35 a.m. Time Adjourned: 12:28 p.m. Attendees: Jim Nanninga - City Administrator Joe Wywrot - City Engineer Bill Dettmer - Building Inspector Mike Schoppe - Schoppe Design Ralph Pfister - Y.B.S.D. J.T. Johnson - Public Works Director Sue Swithin - Recreation Director Alan Norton - Cannonball Estates Jorge Boada - Cannonball Estates CANNONBALL ESTATES SUBDIVISION-PRELIMINARY PLAN Alan stated that there are a number of changes made on this plan per the recommendations made by Plan Commission. Jorge will review them. Changed lot sizes and topography to consist of one area to collect storm water from the original two areas. The lot sizes were increased in area and depth and given a wider easement. All are oversized (>12,000 sq. ft.). Parallel to Cannonball Trail they are almost 1/2 acre. Detention is approximately 250' in width and will be usable most of the time. Cannonball Trail was improved up to the entrance to incorporate widening of the road and to provide utility extension which will enable for other future developments to connect from the south and the west. The sanitary sewer was placed at the lowest point of the property with one point of connection. This will be all gravity - no pump needed. There was extensive discussion regarding the park donation issue. Norton would like a credit given due to the characteristics of the soil in the detention area. No area available above the 100 year flood line for a tot area, at this time. Swithin reiterated the Park Board's request for the park to be located in the southwest corner of the development so that future developments could combine additional acreage to that park location making it a large regional park (7-10 acres) and be more visually open to the street. Schoppe submitted a sketch of the change to the location of the park to the southwest corner of the development by moving a road 1 s and bringing the development in closer to the detention basin and moving the park space over to the other side. Nanninga and Swithin liked Schoppe's sketch and felt it was addressing the issue correctly. The calculations for landcash have not been run yet, but the contribution is approximately 4 acres. The Park Board likes to see a 50150 land/cash donation. Land would equal approximately two acres which is equivalent to approximately $80,000. $40,000 for the construction of the park and $40,000 in cash for capital equipment or improvements to other parks. The formula used to calculate landcash was discussed. Norton wants the landcash to be paid in permits minus the land and improvements he has given. Actual construction of the park was also discussed. Swithin stated that the City, as a standard, has constructed the parks. All the money collected in landcash is not spent on that specific park. Some is utilized in the future for all parks. The Developer is asked to take the site to fine grade, seeded and mulch, with a good stand of grass. After the grass is mowed three times, customarily the City would take it over at that point. Extensive discussion was also held regarding water lines, wet or dry detention area and what flood lines should be shown on the plat. Parks will not accept stormwater detention as land donation. Discussion was held on the issue of compliance with zoning and the Comprehensive Plan, as well as the Plan Commission and Park Board's recommendations. Norton strongly felt that he was exceeding the zoning requirements and still being asked for more. Wywrot, Schoppe and Nanninga said that zoning was not the only guideline where compliance was requested. Compliance was also needed in regard to the Comprehensive Plan and the Plan Commission's recommendation for V2 acre lots on the west side of Cannonball Trail (due to the rural characteristics there), and the Park Board's recommendation for the park to be located in the southwest corner of the development (for the future regional park). The geometric ability to fit all requests into the development was discussed, as well as Schoppe's sketch of a possible change. Landscape and berm screening types, locations and specifics were reviewed. Because of possible changes in future zoning, there were differences in opinions as to the extent of screening needed. Upfront developer fees were discussed. The annexation and zoning fees are not refundable and are due prior to the preliminary plan being put on the Plan Commission Agenda. The deposit for legal & planning services is refundable. Norton was concerned about paying fees that are non refundable for an annexation 2 and zoning that wasn't voted on or considered prior to the Plan Commission. R-2 zoning is the only zoning Norton wants, and the only requirements he wants to be required to meet. Clarification was given again regarding the compliance that is being requested; not just a zoning ordinance but also the Comprehensive Plan, Plan Commission and Park Board recommendations. Johnson clarified the issue as being the two acre park in the corner. This can be done by making one or two lots a little smaller and shifting everything over. Johnson likes this development and wants to see it work. The 1/2 acre lots requested on Cannonball Trail are 4/10 acre, shrinking them more may not be accepted. Norton stated that this is all being done for people that are not in the City, don't pay taxes and don't add value to this anyway. If they don't want to see it, don't go into it. Norton stated there is almost 3 acres of right-of-way dedication. He would like to give a 4 acre donation to the park but can't with all the different donations and dedications being requested. Norton is trying to give the Park two acres without giving up lots. The park does not need to be two acres for this development. That is large for this size development. With the ability to expand to the south and west, less would be ok. Separation of the park from the lake is good, as far as safety goes. Drainage to the southeast and room for park expansion don't work together geometrically. The park must be able to expand to the south and the west, not just one direction. The compromise of the City and the developer were discussed. Schoppe stated the Plan Commission has wrestled with the controlling guide they have to work with for this piece of property, Comprehensive Plan, calls for one acre lots and low density. This has proven to be problematic for this parcel. The City is allowing 1/2 acre along Cannonball Trail and 12,000 sq ft on the other lots, that is a compromise. Norton felt that if the Comprehensive Plan is out dated than it has lost its value because of the improvements made on Cannonball Trail. Those wouldn't be used on one acre lots, it would be well and septic. That's why the Plan Commission decided to consider 1/2 acre and 12,000 sq ft lots. The density requirements of the Comprehensive Plan are being complied with. This is a point where Schoppe and Norton do not agree. The setbacks were discussed. The groundwater issue in the Cannonball area was also discussed. The history was given regarding the studies and conclusion. The conclusion was that the sanitary sewer did not have negative impact on the groundwater or local wells. This issue is done as far as the City is concerned. Boada said this project will help actually help this whole situation by providing a recharge point to the groundwater. But the current Cannonball Trail residents 3 will, most likely, object to this development. A breakdown of the percentage of lots and square footage was given. 37% are 125000; 30% of 12,000 - 15,000; 21% of 15,000 - 20,000; and 10% are larger than 20,000. Schoppe reviewed his comments. His memo is attached to these minutes. The high water line of detention basin must be shown on the preliminary plan. Detention must be designed now because it impacts land usage. This is preliminary, not final. Still must be shown. Detention should be pretty well done at preliminary because it is too important of an issue. Wrywrot stated that a test for detention pond could be done in an actual basin at Ratos basin in Countryside. Asking for a credit for the lake which will be filled by runoff. Wet pond would require a liner which means there wouldn't be any recharge of groundwater. Dry pond - soaks in. This test will show us the swiftness and degree of runoff vs. soak in. Decision to be made after results of test are determined. Fox Valley Park Districts acceptance and credits were discussed. #2 The question is if Plan Commission will accept something less than 1/2 acre, the issue will come down to landscaping and berm. #3 By increasing the planting easement along Cannonball Trail, the association's maintenance area would be greater. The area shown on the first plan submitted was not wanted for this exact reason. Norton stated that this is only for the County residents benefit, not anyone else. Schoppe stated it would be for anyone driving on Cannonball Trail. The landscape, berm issue was discussed. Norton is concerned that the recommendation from staff and consultants is negative regarding lot size. Johnson feels that this subdivision works. Wywrot and Schoppe both feel that the lot sizes are ok with the appropriate landscaping and berming which Schoppe stated he would not give a recommendation until seeing a landscape plan. This will also help the Plan Commission to visualize. The berming along Cannonball Trail is a very important issue. Would like to see a six feet berm with landscaping on top. These lots are set back from the road 40' dedication, another 40' and 180'. Boada stated that the Cannonball Trail lots could be increased to 1/2 acre by decreasing the other lot size to 10,000 sq. ft., but he doesn't feel that makes it any better overall. In subdivisions where this concept works the 10,000 sq. ft. lots back up to an open area. Norton said the point is that there aren't any undersized lots and the average are over the minimum requirements. Schoppe stated if there is going to be any concern on lot size, it will be on width not depth. The Comprehensive Plan calls for a more rural street scape on Cannonball Trail which needs a wider lot. Johnson feels that the berm 4 and landscaping will take care of this. Estate, R-1, and R-2 zoning were discussed. This goes to Plan Commission on 10/13. Boada said he can do a cross section of the berm w/circles for the trees of the concept. Nanninga asked for the standard on this. Schoppe said the standard needs to be higher in this situation, but can give a list of requirements. Standard for berm, agree to a certain number of trees not placement. Schoppe can review and write comments to hand out at the 10/13 meeting. Schoppe gave them a copy of the Fox Hill landscape. A cross section of the berm, house and road gives a lot of information and would really help. This screening is for cars not future developments. Mostly shrubs will be used on the berm. Nanninga suggested that Norton go through Plan Commission a second time as Concept instead of Preliminary to avoid paying non-refundable fees and taking risk of being turned down. Norton doesn't understand why the city is charging non-refundable fees for expenses that may not be incurred. If it were refundable, less expenses incurred, than Norton would not have a problem with it. Nanninga will talk to Art for verification, don't want to mislead. Johnson clarified that after the preliminary is accepted them there is just a public hearing and then annexation. Improvements to street were discussed. The money equivalent to that which would have been used for curbs on Cannonball could be used in some other improvement. Some ideas discussed were left turn lane or overlay. Instead of sidewalks, investigation needs to be done into a 10' pedestrian/bike path bituminous trail, perhaps along Cannonball Trail and Faxon or into large park. Norton would rather see concrete sidewalk. Wywrot will check on the ROW and dedication. Landscape would include one tree per 50 feet in the ROW. The engineers comments were reviewed also. The future streets will have turn arounds at the ends. Schoppe stated that there will need to be some screening along the Faxon Road frontage. Not to the extent of Cannonball Trail, but some berm and landscape. This is screening for the cars and backyards not the future development across the street. A 30' easement has been used in the past. Norton doesn't like sacrificing backyard space from the homeowner who pays taxes just to keep the ROW vacant. Concerned about the homeowner having usable room in their backyard. Johnson stated to keep the berm and landscape small for easier maintenance and more usability to the homeowner. Evergreens are good. The corners inside the subdivision are intersections, not bends in the road. They are intersections, so the 100' radius requirement is void. Curve has been changed 5 where required. The water and sanitary service will go to houses from the interior streets. The watermain on Faxon is a dead end watermain. It can remain a dead end line. Fire hydrants on Cannonball Trail. There should be three additional hydrants added, one off of the 8". Dettmer clarified service. NFPA standard was discussed and the insurance rating. A standard hydrant at the end of the 12" on Faxon. There is recapture on the north watermain. A recapture agreement would be established for the future tie in across the road of 50%. The two sources of water supply should be at distant points. 8" needs an upgrade to 12". The sanitary sewer extension is needed to Faxon Road at the end of the subdivision. This will need to be looked at closer. Engineering issues need to be reviewed by the Plan Commission. Wywrot's comments need to be in packetts for Thursday. Minutes respectfully submitted by Holly Baker. 6 Schoppe Design .Associates Landscape Architecture and Land Planning, 202 Lombardy Lane (630) 554-9775 Oswego, IL 60543 Fax (630) 554-4667 October 4, 1999 MEMORANDUM To: Jim Nanninga, City Administrator From: Mike Schoppe, Schoppe Design Associates RE: Cannonball Estates—Planning Council Comments 1. The following additional information needs to be provided on the preliminary plan. a. Location Map. b. Zoning on and contiguous to subdivision. C. Area to be dedicated to public use. d. Sidewalks. e. Lot areas for the residential lots. f. High water line around basin. 2. All lots backing on to Cannonball Trail should be increased in size to ''/z acre. 3. I recommend the proposed planting easement along Cannonball Trail be increased in width from 40' to 60'. We should work with the petitioner to create an appropriate landscape plan with extensive berming and plantings in the easement area. 4. I estimate the park contribution requirement to be approximately 4 acres. A minimum of 2 acres of this should be provided in land with the balance in cash. The park should be located at the extreme south west corner of the property. This will allow future park expansion to the south as well as the west when the adjoining property develops. We should be planning for an 8 to 10 acre park to serve the residences in this general area. 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