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Plan Council Minutes 1996 12-12-96 s CITY OF YORKVILLE Committee Minutes - Planning Council Date of Meeting: December 12, 1996 Location: 111 W. Fox, Suite 3 Time Convened: 9:35 AM Time Adjourned: 12:00 AM Attendees: Representing J.T. Johnson City of Yorkville Mike Bohr Cannonball Estates Lisa Rauch Cannonball Estates Cal Thelin Cannonball Estates Thomas Javorik Cannonball Estates John J. Williams Cannonball Estates Joe Wywrot City of Yorkville Jeff Palmquist Lannert Group Bill Dettmer City of Yorkville Tony Graff Yorkville Police Jim Nanninga City of Yorkville PC 96-7 CANNONBALL ESTATES Nanninga opened the meeting asking if there was anything new since the last Planning Commission review meeting that the Cannonball Estates people wanted to advise the Council of Thelin stated that they had an opportunity to discuss the water issue with two of the neighbors in the area, and they hope that they can participate with the City in helping to resolve that issue as it may exist, and not as a part of the annexation process, but rather as to not adversely affect the neighbors, and maybe they could even improve it. They will in fact design their detention areas to do as much as it can. Thelin asked Javorik to comment on detention and how he thought it should be treated so that it can deal with any issues the neighbors may have. Based on preliminary design Javorik stated that they thought the problems are the shallow wells. We can make a detention pond as an excavation in the lower area near Cannonball, and make sure no water goes out from there, or not, based on soil borings that could indicate excavation will not be a problem. Cannonball Estates will get water from the City of Yorkville, therefore they are not creating an additional problem. It is very hard to get information from the other side of Cannonball. Bohr stated that according to the elevation, 25%will be subject to the ground water. They took borings down to 20' , and most of the areas are probably going to be 6' - 8' based on how flat the property is. The foundation elevation will probably be 1 1/2' above that. He ran a calculation and only about 25% of the homes are going to be in that range. Jim stated that as you come in for permits for certain areas, we would require certain things such as, if there is a basement, then the City would require special waterproofing, and a battery back-up for power, but this will come during final. I just want you to be aware of it. Bohr stated that the water table at the North end of the property near Faxon& Cannonball is 2' higher, and as you get Planning Council Committee Minutes -2- toward the middle of the property it has actually gone down about 4 feet and in the Southeast it is approximately 2 ' lower. The water used to just sit there and now it drains. We will make copies of any of this available to the City. The only thing not considered is that the rainfall has been less, and there is probably some natural causes also. Most water comes from Rob Roy Creek. Wywrot asks if they have a field tile analysis. He is concerned with the discharge from detention basin. This can be a point of contamination for people with shallow wells. Tom stated they could use a perforated pipe system with sides only being perforated, or they can go back to the completely routine storm water management and have a detention pond, we have both options open. Whatever the City wants. Wywrot stated perhaps an expert should look at this. Bohr asked how many people have shallow wells. There are about 3 and one is now on City water. One with shallow well is toward Route 34, the older homes along Cannonball are probably the ones with sand point wells. The newer homes have deep wells as sand points are no longer allowed unless you do it yourself. Wywrot states he is concerned that if someone dumps motor oil in the storm sewer and residents get sick, they will blame the City whether it is right or wrong. Thelin asked what can we do to raise the comfort problem. Nanninga stated the City has just sent a letter offering water connection with no fees, but they do have to pay for the service line going in to them, and then they will have to annex. We have also volunteered to have our expert back to re-evaluate and invited their engineer to be present. Palmquist stated that the Plan Commission is going to need something conclusive to cover this. Johnson stated that he has no problem with the water, that there is no problem. He has a 40' sand point well and they are a problem, the EPA has been addressing it for 20 years. People in the farming community have had that problem with chemicals on the crops and feed lots, and anything of that kind. The water table is not a problem. Nanninga stated he felt the water should not be retained, let it flow through. Thelin asked if a strategy could be presented to the Plan Commission outlining the steps to be taken. Nanninga stated he had hoped for a meeting with Lindley. The City is paying to have him back again on this issue. Thelin stated that if this problem isn't resolved it will delay the project considerably. Wywrot stated maybe they should get a ground water expert to review Lindley's findings. Thelin stated they would do that as part of the annexation process. Wywrot stated that they probably won't reach the annexation process without it. Thelin stated this was not really their issue. There is nothing they can do with their property except whatever is recommended. If the water problem has to be resolved before they proceed through the preliminary plat process, there are too many transitional issues and it may never make it out of there. The concept plan can be accepted or rejected, and the water issue can be dealt with by the City Council and the Planning Council, but it should not be a Plan Commission issue at this time as it should be a professional issue. It should be presented in such a way as not to be held .... Nanninga states hostage. Thelin states he didn't want to use that word, as he isn't sure that is the intention by his objectors, but it could have that effect. A recommendation could be made that the Final Plat not be approved until the City has signed off. On the manner in which the engineering for the detention areas, recognizing the water problem, let the professionals do it, we would all be better off. I hope that would be something the City would consider. Nanninga stated that ideally this was right. Wywrot stated that he wondered why Cannonball Estates would want to do it that way as this is a very basic issue. Why spend the money on engineering and Planning Council Committee Minutes -3- planning and then have it fall apart. Thelin stated that no one has said this land should not be developed, or that the comprehensive plan land usage is such a nature that it can't be developed, but rather it can be developed as R-2, and with those two elements it is a matter of how that detention area can be designed. Tell us how to do it and we will do it. Wywrot stated the City is not the appropriate one to tell you how to do it, you need to get a groundwater expert or offer to hook everyone on Cannonball Trail up to City water. Thelin stated that everyone on Cannonball is not our issue, and the City has already offered to hook them up for free, but it is conditioned on annexation. Nanninga stated the City was not volunteering to pay for the water line. Wywrot stated there is two ways to make the problem go away and that is to do a real thorough study by another expert, and perhaps another expert beyond that so all the experts agree that the homeowners on Cannonball Trail are wrong. Or not know if they are right or wrong and say we are going to solve it, and take away the argument by taking away their wells and giving them City water. Thelin stated if we assume they are right then it is an engineering issue of how to design this so as to not aggravate the problem, is that it? Wywrot stated that in an ideal world yes, but you need to get your ground expert to prove and demonstrate that you aren't going to be aggravating the problem. Thelin stated he would like the Plan Commission approval subject to their obtaining this, as the timing is not there to get this done, and they won't believe that expert either. They are willing to deal with these issues, and get the Plan Commission to agree and they are willing and move it onto an engineering level to get this thing done. Wywrot stated they could get it done now. Thelin stated they would try, but if for some reason this is not done, they will not be held up for another meeting. Wywrot stated he understood, but people are extremely vocal, and are not going to go away, and getting conditional approval is not going to move you that far along. Nanninga stated that he didn't believe that Plan Commission would do it. Logic says the whole issue of ground water and our storm sewer has absolutely nothing to do with your development, but they have married it together, so logic isn't prevailing. Thelin stated he would like logic to come from the recommendation of this body. Can you recommend that? Wywrot stated that they could only recommend individually. Palmquist stated that the worst case scenario, and lets say that this development would exacerbate a ground water situation, what impact would that have on the plan as proposed? Would that mean they would have to reduce the number of lots in half, change the plan or is that something that would then just require technical engineering mitigation measures in the form of a plan. If the plan is going to change significantly, I would agree with Joe. Johnson stated the plan shouldn't change. The number of homes has no bearing on how they handle the ground water. Palmquist stated that it is not a technical issue that affects the carrying capacity of the land. Based upon your general assessment you would find a general land use subject to specific investigations upon development. Regardless of the impact or lack of impact on the groundwater, there is still a reasonable potential to get that plan. It would be contingent on how much and what measures they have to go through to prevent any further problems along Cannonball Trail. Nanninga stated he agreed, and had one thing he wanted to ask, he would like to know, is when they mentioned 25%being subject to groundwater. Can you raise that 25% so that none of the new development makes an impact on their ground water by raising them above the water table. Johnson stated that in dealing with this group, they will just raise another issue. They are already using the way the County has zoned this as an issue. They Planning Council Committee Minutes -4- don't want this development, they have some old documentation stating they would have only large lots out there. Also the traffic issue. Due to roof tops, blacktop, etc. water doesn't get into the ground as fast as it used to, so they will use all of this to say it affects their wells. Thelin asked how many residents are directly affected. Johnson stated that deep wells cannot be affected. They had one woman who was affected with water turning orange, but she has connected to City water. Ground water goes the way it wants to go, not necessarily the way it has always gone. This issue is more political than anything else. Graff stated that the policy decision made by the Plan Commission will be based on direction from the City Council, and they need to make a decision on this entire issue. Palmquist stated he thought the Plan Commission would appreciate that, as they look at the plan based on primary issues, the water issue clouds other issues. Thelin stated the best he could do was provide data. Johnson stated there is no land use change here and the water is not an issue, you need to have your expert come in to the Plan Commission and say what he found, and we have our Lindley Report that shows what we found. Thelin stated he would like a recommendation for an expert. Johnson stated there is someone from the University of Illinois who did a lot of work in Aurora, and Sugar Grove. Gilkerson is a geologist and has done a lot of studies in this area. Nanninga stated that Joe prepares a letter directed to the Plan Commission as our City Engineer reflecting his blessings, and stating he has looked at all the data, and invited the Cannonball Trail resident expert along with the information from our expert. This is what it takes for the Plan Commission to make a recommendation. Wywrot stated you just need someone who is qualified. Perhaps submit 3 names, with their educational background and references. Thelin asked Javorik to do this, and quickly, to have names to Wywrot by Monday. Nanninga stated there are no guarantees, but if they throw experts at the problem and they have the letter, and the Plan Commission votes no, then our Council can say "We did what we needed to do" , and there is some justification to override, if that should happen. Thelin state they would get the expert. Wywrot stated the review of the preliminary plan can go on concurrently with the ground water issue. Nanninga stated for the record that all developers are billed for time during this meeting for Palmquist's time. Wywrot stated that the resolution states there is a $500. fee at the time of concept plan, and a balance due at preliminary plan submittal. Bohr stated they are pretty current. Palmquist stated they should address the landscaping and berming, and that they do need a landscape plan. Bohr asked if they still need to berm as that was based on smaller lots. Palmquist stated they recommend no driveways onto Cannonball Trail. Palmquist stated you need some heavy landscaping and berming regardless of whether it is the front or back of the home along Cannonball. Bohr stated he wanted to know if the plan is what the City wants, to avoid doing any additional drawings. Johnson stated the Plan Council is a recommendation body only. Palmquist stated they do need to diminish the appearance of the rear of homes from the road, and that all marketing reports on this subject state this is high on the list as being the way to go. Thelin stated that Javorik should work out a plan with Palmquist, and submit it to the Council. Bohr stated it looks like they will have to re-design the plan again to meet these type of requirements. Palmquist stated regardless of what anyone says, or any other factors such as traffic, etc., Cannonball Trail will be a collector road and should not have driveways coming out onto it. Nanninga stated for the record that everyone is in agreement on that. Nanninga asked Wywrot for comment& questions on watermain circulation and sanitary sewer. Wywrot stated Planning Council Committee Minutes -5- he had only looked at it briefly, and so he wants to look at it closer, but nothing is glaring. Palmquist stated that the traffic report recommends that Faxon be reconstructed to a 90 degree angle at Cannonball. Bohr stated this can be done. Wywrot stated he sent a copy of the traffic report to IDOT, so they may want to contact Greg Mounts at IDOT. Nanninga stated he would like to discuss improvements that will be required on adjacent roads. Start with Cannonball, it is shown on the plan as a collector and would have 39' curb and gutter street, but the question is, do we really want that on Cannonball? If not, another option would be is to take whatever that cost would be to improve Cannonball, to take those funds and use it to resurface all the way down to the intersection at Route#34, and then the question is, do we need turn lanes? Wywrot stated the traffic report did call for turn bays, in at least one spot. Nanninga stated that obviously the turn bay would require widening, and that covers what should be done to improve Cannonball, and your requirement would be half. Bohr stated there is a natural waterway there and it works with the contour of the land, and changing that would be a major expense. Palmquist stated that this area doesn't need curbs, it makes it more urban, and that is not the desired look for this area. Johnson stated we need to be very careful as the City Council may want sidewalks, curb and gutters here. They have expressed that they want it everywhere. When we address Faxon Road improvements, it should be done differently. Nanninga stated yes, that is true, we are only recommending here, but it would be nice to take those funds and resurface Cannonball all the way to Route#34 and have a nice entrance. Palmquist stated that the City Council should be asked to look at the cost benefit of that. Thelin stated that assuming they are comfortable with costs based on an engineers estimate, the dollars are not an issue with them to make this change, the issue is with what the City will do with those dollars, so should we show curb and gutter on the preliminary plan or not. Johnson stated they should not show it based on the recommendation of this body, and this is a good option. Palmquist stated this could be reflected in the annexation agreement as there is no PUD. Graff stated he knows the City has not adopted the Rural Standards that are being worked on, but that had no curb and gutters, and this fits that classification. Nanninga stated he agreed, but on those standards the City was requiring 1 acre lots for that. Graff stated he liked Eola's path and are we going to do something here, a walking &bike path like that along the opposite side of the swale on the easement and maintained by the municipality. Palmquist stated that was a good idea since Cannonball and the corner is sure to be commercial. Nanninga asked if Plan Council was in agreement with this. No objections were voiced. Graff asked about lighting on Cannonball. Wywrot stated City standard for lighting. Nanninga stated lights at 300'. Nanninga stated lets move on to Faxon Road now. Wywrot stated Faxon is beat up and needs to be raised to City standards. Nanninga stated they don't want any half streets, that the whole road needs to be done with recapture, 39'with curb & gutter. Palmquist stated this will be a collector for residential. It will be intercepted by the new industrial North/South road and that is where the truck traffic will split, Faxon and Cannonball roads will be posted so truck traffic will have to use the new North/South Road. Johnson stated that industrial road needs to be foremost on the list of improvements for the industrial area. This should be referred to Wywrot for his recommendations. Palmquist asked about turn lanes. The State will want a turn lane. Thelin stated that he understands that they need an engineers estimate of cost to fully improve Cannonball with curb and gutter, but as it is rural and no one wants curb and gutter Planning Council Committee Minutes -6- the funds will be used to resurface all of Cannonball instead. Graff stated that for fire and police both entrances have to be accessible to the development. Thelin stated that in order to make this project flow correctly we need to have the meeting on the water issue before the New Year. We also have to resolve landscape issues for Palmquist. Nanninga stated they also need to meet with the Park Board. Thelin stated he has done that and they will take Lot#11 & 12, and about 1/2 acre into the high areas of the detention behind these two lots which comes up to 1 acre, which is what they wanted. An acre plus cash. They want them to incorporate the lots into the detention so they are not responsible for maintenance. Johnson stated he doesn't understand how the maintenance will work. Thelin stated they will maintain the detention area, the City will not have to. The City wiVmaintain maintain the park area only. They will dedicate the detention area of the Park to the homeowners to maintain. Johnson stated that historically the City gets stuck maintaining these areas that are left to homeowners associations to care for. Thelin stated the cash for the parks amounts to $37,500. Thelin stated they will make it part of sales contract. Nanninga asked for other issues. Adjourned 12:00 PM Minutes By:;�c�