Plan Commission Minutes 2002 10-16-02 UNITED CITY OF YORKVILLE
PLAN COMMISSION MEETING - 3 a> -
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2002
Chairman Tom Lindblom called the meeting to order at 7:05 p.m.
ROLL CALL
Members present: Kerry Green, Clarence Holdiman, Jeff Baker, Bill Davis, Brian
Schillinger, Tom Mizel, Ted King, Michael Crouch, Andrew 11ubala &Tom Lindblom.
Members absent: Anne Lucietto, Sandra Adams and Jack Jones. v'T-
A quorum was established.
VISITORS
Those who signed the sign-in sheet or spoke at the meeting: Art Zwemke, John
Phillipchuck, Mayor Art Prochaska, City Attorney Dan Kramer, City Planner Mike
Schoppe, City Administrator Tony Graff, Janet Schor, Merrill Schor, Bill Schmidt, Lois
Seaton, Gerald Seaton, Jessica Lee, Bob and Debbie Olson, Tony and Doris Buchner, Bill
Mikus, Dave Walker, Jeff Freeman, John Whitehouse, Gene and Carol Sheeley, Bob and
Sally Walker, Ken Doty, Lynn Dubajic, Anne Denovellis.
MINUTES
None
PUBLIC HEARINGS
Continuation from Oct. 9
PC 2001-06 Grande Reserve: Petitioners request to annex to the United City of
Yorkville and to rezone from Kendall County A-1 Agricultural to Yorkville R-2
Planned Unit Development. The real property consists of approximately 1,127.30
acres and is located south of Galena Road and north of Route 34.
Art Zwemke, president and CEO of Moser Enterprises, Inc.,provided an overview of the
concept land plan as presented at the Oct. 9 public hearing. Zwemke said the land is
impacted by manmade improvements as well as natural opportunities such as Blackberry
Creek.
The land plan features 56 acres of open space for a regional park and 88 acres in the
southwest corner for a conservation area.
The land plan will be predominantly single-family homes with attached products
clustered along the railroad tracks. There will be five townhome areas and one apartment
site. Those more intense uses will be located near the roadways and railroad tracks, he
said.
Plans call for 12 future neighborhood parks totaling 76 acres and a donation of$1,000 per
homesite to go toward park improvements. There also will be a private clubhouse in the
community.
Zwemke said the seven different single-family products include an area with villa-type
homes to attract empty-nest buyers.
Lot sizes in the proposed development average 11,500 square feet. Zwemke said lots
along Route 34 and Bristol Ridge Road will average 12,600 square feet.
There is one proposed 15-acre school site in the center of the development with a park
attached and a possible 76-acre area for a middle school or high school campus.
Zwemke said the development would feature 11 miles in trails.
The area east of Bristol Ridge Road falls in the Fox Metro FPA. For water service, there
likely will be a water tower on Mill Street, a deep well next to the tower and a second
well elsewhere. City water and septic will service 18,000 homesites west of Bristol Ridge
Road.
Zwemke said he wanted to address the three main areas of concern expressed at the Oct.
9 public hearing. One of those main concerns was the use of retention and detention
areas. Zwemke said there will be retention and detention areas on the property. Retention
ponds are used to hold the water and detention areas are used to slow the water,he said.
The application of the methodologies depends on the rate of storm water flow through an
area and soil conditions in that area. The key point, he said, is that the developers must
comply with Illinois statutes which state that developers are required to limit the
discharge from a property to no more than exists naturally.
He said engineers will evaluate areas that have been flood prone in the past and he asked
that residents who know such areas to leave their names, addresses and phone numbers so
they can be contacted.
Zwemke said flooding was another major concern expressed at the previous hearing
meeting. Some resident asked if houses,roads and lawns instead of farm fields would
make the problem worse. Zwemke said the developers will comply with engineering
standards. "Farm fields today don't necessarily manage storm water as well as you might
think,"he said.
Another concern voiced by residents dealt with private wells. They wondered if the deep
wells of the proposed new development would affect the wells of those who live in the
nearby subdivisions.
Zwemke said that deep wells required by municipalities are usually in excess of 1,500
feet deep to reach high quality aquifers. He said that private wells are usually about 220
feet deep and that community wells such as those in Storybrook Highlands are 650 feet
deep, both of which are in different aquifers. He then showed a slide on well schematics.
Zwemke said another concern was on how the proposed development would affect
Blackberry Creek and how the creek can be protected. "We view Blackberry Creek as a
major amenity in the area,"he said. One 56-acre area near the creek has been proposed as
a regional park. The wetland and floodplain area of about 30 acres would be undisturbed
as would about 8 acres of tall oak trees along Kennedy Road. The remaining 18 acres
could be used for active recreation and parking.
Also, he said that there is an 88-acre site north of Kennedy Road that has been designated
as a conservation area. He added that there are state grants available for both areas to
leverage the donation of this land and acquire additional adjacent land to try to add more
areas near Blackberry Creek.
On the subject of property values, Zwemke said that the city has done a very thorough
job in the comprehensive plan and designating areas for specific zoning. Under the
transitional zoning, densities of 2.25 to 3.5 units per acre are allowed. Zwemke said that
the developers happen to be right in the middle at 3.0 units per acre and that they need to
provide 15 percent additional open space to meet the requirements.
The size of lots was another concern expressed at the public hearing. Those who live in
county subdivision such as Lynwood, River Ridge and Storybrook Highlands were
concerned that their lot sizes are much larger than the lots proposed in Grande Reserve.
The resident wanted to know how the borders between the new and existing
developments would be buffered and what would happen to storm water in the process.
"You folks were here first. We want to try to fit in and to be good neighbors,"Zwemke
said. The developers are proposing 25-foot buffers adjacent to all county subdivisions to
be put in as each subdivision is platted. He said there will be written specifications
detailing landscape buffers for each particular neighborhood.
As for storm water, he said that each are will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis to
determine both over land flows and underground field tiles. He said that storm water pipe
will be installed when necessary in the buffer areas so that water will not back up into a
neighbor's yard.
A prevailing comment at the public hearing was that all of the lots the new development
should be a minimum of 12,000 square feet. Zwemke said that if the entire development
contained 12,000 square foot lots, there would be almost 1900 homes with 7,125 people
including 2,270 school-aged children. That amounts to more homes and a high population
than what the developers are projecting.
Instead, the developer is seeking to create a community with 24 neighborhoods and a
variety of price ranges and of housing products. The plan includes seven single-family
areas, two duplex areas, two townhome areas and one apartment complex.
"We feel we will add to the property values in the area and not negatively impact
anybody's property,"Zwemke said.
Another question from residents that Zwemke addressed focused on the expected size and
price of homes targeted to be adjacent to existing subdivisions of Lynwood, River Ridge
and Storybrook Highlands.
He said the villa-type homes proposed near Storybrook Highlands might be ranch or two-
story homes with the master bedrooms downstairs. Two- and three-bedroom homes are
the most likely plans for the area.
The homes planned near the Lynwood subdivision target the"move-up"buyer,he said.
Four bedroom, two-story, traditional homes are expected in the area, he added.
The homes next to River Ridge are the largest semi-custom homes. However,he said that
depends on the resolution of private septic services for the area. If the lots are serviced by
municipal sanitary services, then lot sizes would be reduced from 18,000 square feet to
12,000 square feet. The homes would then be expected to average 3,050 square feet at an
average selling price of$345,000. Zwemke said that the changes would be necessary
because the cost of infrastructure is enormous.
Regarding traffic, residents had expressed concern that traffic is already bad and Grande
Reserve will only make it worse. Zwemke said that the development has multiple access
points including major roadways such as Galen Road and Route 34 and minor roadways
such as Bristol Ridge Road, Kenney Road and Mill Street. The multiple roadways will
allow developers to disperse traffic in several directions from small neighborhood
clusters.
He added that the internal road system will be designed to discourage cut-through traffic,
making the neighborhoods safer. Also he said that the 11-mile trail system will encourage
pedestrian traffic between neighborhoods and to the elementary school.
Another concern Zwemke addressed focused on what road improvements the developers
will make and when. Zwemke said that the nature, extent and timing of road
improvements will be based on the collective efforts of the developer, Yorkville, the
Illinois Department of Transportation, Kendall County and Oswego Township. He said
public safety issues will be addressed first followed by area growth and specific issues
related to Grande Reserve.
Zwemke added that the developers will pay for a traffic study which is underway. The
first effort is to benchmark existing traffic conditions including volumes, signalization
and turn lanes. Future traffic will be projected based on anticipated future land use. He
said that the developer will be responsible for their direct impact on area traffic.
As for a possible traffic signal on Route 34, Zwemke said that Route 34 is a state road
and that IDOT will decide when and where a traffic signal is warranted. The most likely
future location is at Route 34 and Bristol Ridge Road.
On another road topic,residents expressed at the last public hearing concern about three
east/west dead-end streets in the Lynwood and River Ridge subdivisions. Residents
wanted to know if the streets will be extended into Grande Reserve. Zwemke said that the
Lynwood subdivision is near the Yorkville/Oswego border and that accordingly the land
uses to the east of Lynwood would have some impact on decisions to extend the dead-end
streets through Grande Reserve.
Zwemke added that future land uses west of Grande Reserve will be evaluated before
deciding to extend any dead-end roads from River Ridge. He said public safety issues
will be the highest priority in the evaluation process.
With Zwemke's portion of the presentation completed, Commission Chairman Tom
Lindblom asked that anyone who knows of areas in the community with flooding
problems leave their name and telephone number so they can be contacted.
He then read a letter from Gerald and Lois Seaton. (See attached.)Upon reading the
letter, Lindblom said that some, but not all of the issues, raised in the letter have been
addressed. He thanked the Seatons for submitting the letter.
Lindblom said he received a call from someone who called the City of Montgomery and
found out Montgomery has a nuisance bond. He said Yorkville has an even better system.
He said that city inspectors go to construction sites daily. If the developers are causing
trash and not following rules, they will be fined.
Mayor Art Prochaska said that the city can put a lien on the property so that it makes sure
the developers pay.
Resident Tom Brown asked if the development is approved, what happens in there is a
problem with well water. Also he asked that if a retention pond is installed, will there be
more flooding problems. If so, he asked if there was any recourse property owners could
take.
City Attorney Dan Kramer said the developers need to present a drainage plan and the
city engineers will review it. He said the release rate will be less than it is in its natural
state. He said that Mr. Brown should see less water than he does now.
But to answer the question on recourse, Kramer said property owners always have the
right to file an action. At this point, until they design a system and it is reviewed, he said
they cannot assure residents how the retention ponds will work.
Brown said that once field tiles were installed in the field across frorn his house, the
problem was solved. But now that building has started in Oswego, the problem is worse
than it has been in 30 years.
Kramer said that any time there is development, the tiles are disturbed and problems can
arise. He also said that developers try to tie into the storm water system,but that the tile
maps are not always good.
Zwemke said that the firm of Bob Cowhey, the consulting engineer,will get in touch
with Brown to discuss his concerns. He said the area was mass graded and then stopped
and he doesn't think the storm water work was finished.
Debbie Olson, a resident of Storybrook Highlands, asked when the developers would
have information on the villas available and if they have made any decision to change the
plans as presented.
Zwemke said the developers are still working out the details in neighborhoods 1, 2 and 3
on whether to subdivide or to go to villas, which would attract empty nest buyers. He
added that the developers have not made any changes since the public hearing opened the
previous week He said they want to hear all of the comments before they proceed.
Olson asked if there will be a public hearing on the PUD agreements for each
neighborhood. Kramer said probably not. However, he said that all of the meetings are
public and people are welcome to attend.
Olson also asked if all homes are formulated into the school donation program and
Kramer said yes.
Cindy Carroll, a resident of the Lynwood subdivision, said she is concerned about the
flooding problem. Lindblom said she has the same concern as Mr. Brown and that a city
engineer and a consulting engineer will consult on the issue.
Dagmara Nyman of Yorkville expressed concern about the detention and retention ponds
on Route 34 and said that entire field drained through property near tier. She asked the
commission to please consider flooding problems as they consider the petitioners request.
Lindblom asked her to leave her name and number so that the engineers can contact her.
Resident Anne Denovellis asked what flood projects are used in planning retention and
detention areas. She asked if the projections are for 100-year or 150-year floods.
Cowhey said that they comply with 100-year standards. He said that all of the facts
presented on flooding are incorporated into the central design. He said they are very
cognizant of flooding issues.
Lindblom said that in all of the flooding of 1996, City Administrator Tony Graff said
there were no problems in any of the subdivisions that had retention or detention areas.
Resident Dave Walker said that when considering transitional areas, he would like the
plan commission to consider the transition from other subdivision to the new ones. He
said he doesn't think just throwing a buffer in is always the solution.
He also said he sees that a lot of the green space in the plan is inside the subdivision
which will benefit those who are coming to the community,but not those who are already
here.
Walker added that he is very concerned about lot sizes. He said a lot of other developers
are going to be looking at this project to see how far they can stretch the rules. He said
that when acres for schools and clubhouses are added, it throws off the actual density.
Walker also said buffers instead of green space is a concern because it seems the separate
the communities.
Closing his comments, Walker said the city needs to be careful in what it gives in regard
to lot sizes and that it needs to try to challenge the future.
Zwemke showed as slide of the comprehensive plan which outline the transitional area
definition. He said the area does take into account existing subdivisions. He also said that
he feels the developers are providing a lot of open space.
Commissioner Tom Mizel said that Walker is concerned with the 88 acres being called a
conservation area because most of it is swamp land.
Zwemke said 35 acres of that land is wetlands. He said they could build on that land.
However, he said they felt it made sense to put it into a conservation area and explore the
opportunities if left in its natural state for state grants. He added that Blackberry Creek is
an important natural amenity.
As for buffering, he said the developers are using the area immediately south of the
railroad tracks for the most intensive housing use. He said the area for duplexes and
townhomes does an excellent job of buffering from the street and between
neighborhoods.
He said the developers are trying to create smaller-sized neighborhoods. "We're trying to
create something that limits internal traffic,"Zwemke said.
The developers believe they have a good land plan and a smart use of resources, he said.
Regarding lot sizes, he said the developers are trying to get away from a grid-like system
by varying lot sizes. The average lot size of 11,500 square feet is 115 percent of the
minimum.
He believes that the tradeoffs for having lot sizes below the 12,000 square foot minimum
requirement in the zoning plan is worth it because the community is getting more land for
parks and money to improve the parks.
Resident Bill Mikus said there has been much talk about meeting the state requirements
on releasing storm water. He put a challenge to the commission to require the developer
to keep all storm water on site and not release any of it into the streams.
He also asked the developers to consider planting natural prairie grasses because they
retain more water and if left unmoved won't attract geese. Commission member Brian
Schillinger said he agrees with Mikus on planting natural prairie grasses and natural
retentions.
Mikus said there is new technology that makes it possible in some cases to retain all
water on the site. Schillinger asked Mikus to give his sources since he put the challenge
to he commission.
Mikus said that in the cases he knows about, the water is allowed to slowly seep into the
ground naturally.
Cowhey, however, said they have looked into different methods of retention and
detention. The method Mikus suggested has been successful in different, limited areas.
Cowhey said there has to be ideal ground conditions for such as system to work He said it
has been tried in various areas around Chicago and it has not had a good success rate.
However, he said the developers will consider it if the ground conditions allow.
Resident Jessica Lee asked about water treatment facilities and ionization plants and
wondered if one would be put in behind Lynwood. She is concerned about stagnant water
and possible odors.
Also she that if the developers are putting the plants next to their apartments next which
they consider to be lower-income housing, she doesn't want Lynwood to be considered a
lower-income area.
Zwemke said the cation treatment facility is actually located more near the well site and
water tower. He said the lime treatment site is proposed near Route 34 and nowhere near
Lynwood.
John Whitehouse, with Engineering Enterprises, Inc., said the cation treatment can be put
into a facility that looks like a house. He also said that cation is a water softener type
process that is very quiet.
He also took a moment to explain the storm water issue. Cowhey said that the developers
do not intend to have more than several detention ponds.
Walker asked if the Plan Commission members have visited other sites development by
MPI since the developer is not doing the construction.
He also said he believes the estimated projection of new students is underestimated and
asked if the developers have considered putting a sports facility on the land.
Zwemke said the developers will work closely with the park board to come up with
viable plans for the park site. He said that a large sports facility is not an option.
Carol Sheeley of Yorkville said that with the projected number of school-age students she
sees the need for more than one school. She said that 1,500 is what the district has now in
five schools.
Zwemke explained the school formula where developers give land or cash or both. He
said the elementary site on 15-acres is the preferable site according to the superintendent
of schools. Zwemke also said that if there is a middle school or high school campus
added, the number of housing units would decrease and thus so would the number of
potential students.
He added that the developers believe there won't be any children in the empty-nesters
area and that there won't be many children in the apartments.
Resident Bill White asked if the comprehensive plan called for any commercial or
industrial uses on Kennedy and Galena Road. Zwemke said that is not MPI property.
Denovellis asked if streets extending from the existing subdivisions to Grande Reserve
would have sidewalks. Zwemke said that if the decision is made to extend roads into
Grande Reserve, some consideration needs to be made for the transitions. He said he
doubts there will be sidewalks,but the possibility exists for city lighting.
Commissioner Andrew Kubala made a motion to close the public hearing. Commissioner
Brian Schillinger seconded the motion. The motion was unanimously approved by voice
vote.
NEW BUSINESS
PC 2001-06: Grande Reserve
Kubala said that south of the railroad tracks there looks to be 1,700 to 1,800 units. If each
of the homesites had two cars, there would be an estimated 4,000 vehicles coming in and
out of the area, yet there only four points to access or egress, he said. He asked if it was
adequate.
Zwemke said that it may not be adequate, but that's what the traffic study is for. When
the traffic study comes in there will be a clearer picture. He also said MOT limits access
to Route 34.
Schillinger said he has a problem with all of the acreage on Route 34 frontage being
residential. He believes more consideration should be given to commercial, retail or
office use. He said that frontage roads should be considered instead of traffic lights.
Zwemke said they would love to have commercial on the property,but it is not
appropriate for the area and the comprehensive plan doesn't support it.
Schillinger said the comprehensive plan is not set in stone. Zwemke said the developers
are taking it as a wish list.
Commissioner Kerry Green asked where the water would go from the bowl. Cowhey said
that the water from the school area south will go to the river through existing culverts.
Most of the area north of the school site will go down the ComEd right of way and to
Blackberry Creek. "We're respective of the existing drainage boundaries,"he said. He
added they will stay within the laws.
Lindblom said that the petitioners came to the Plan Commission asking for annexation
and zoning for an R-2 Planned Unit Development. He asked if the townhomes were part
of the PUD.
Kramer said the R-2 PUD is base zoning. When developers ask for a PUD, duplexes and
such need to be defined within the development and those lots will have to be
differentiated by legal description, he said.
Kramer also cautioned commissioners about recommended commercial use in the area.
He said when the comprehensive plan was approved, it was done so with the intent to
follow it as closely as possible.
Schillinger said he believes more discussion and more information is needed before a
vote on zoning can be made.
Zwemke said they would like a comprehensive annexation document. Neighborhood by
neighborhood, they have created building standards to everyone understands what they
are proposing in that section of the development, he said.
Then, he said, they will do the preliminary plat and final engineering. He said this isn't
something where they do the engineering with the annexation.
Zwemke said this is a community that is going to be built over time and that the
developers do not intend to do the engineering for each neighborhood now. In five to ten
years, plans could change,but the developers would still comply with building standards.
What the developers are proposing is a very detailed annexation agreement. Zwemke said
he thinks that is a good way to manage the development. He added that they have
followed the letter of the comprehensive plan and that if there is a decision not to follow
it, the developers, at best,would be confused.
Commissioner Michael Crouch said that since this is a PUD agreement, the commission
will still have the opportunity to examine lot sizes, etc. Kramer said that they will in
terms of lot sizes and land criteria but not land use.
Lindblom asked if it would be appropriate for the Plan Commission to go through each
neighborhood and discuss the commissioner's opinions. He said it is hard to have a good
discussion in the setting at the Beecher Center.
Commissioner Jeff Baker said that after nine to ten hours of public hearings, he would
like to have time to go back and look at some of the issues that were brought up.
Kubala made a motion to recommend approval for annexation of the property as
requested in PC 2001-06. Davis seconded the motion. The motion was unanimously
approved by roll call vote. Green, Holdiman, Baker, Davis, Schillinger, Mizel, King,
Crouch, Kubala and Lindblom voted yes.
City Planner Mike Schoppe asked the commissioners if there is other information the
developers could provide to help them make their decision.
Zwemke said the developers will start drafting documents regarding such things as
setbacks by the end of October. He said he can turn it in as a draft to the commission. He
also said the traffic study will be done by the Nov. 20 meeting.
Zwemke added that this is a large plan and he wants the commissioners to feel good
about it.
Commissioner Ted King asked if this fits in the developers time schedule.
Zwemke said yes and that in a perfect world the annexation and zoning would get
approval as soon as practical.
Commissioner Bill Davis said that the minimum lot sizes are the real glitch and asked
that more information be presented at the next meeting.
Crouch also said that more information about neighborhoods 1, 2, and 3 would be
helpful.
Kubala made a motion to continue the public hearing to Nov. 20 at City Hall. Green
seconded the motion. The motion was unanimously approved by roll call vote.
The meeting adjourned at 9:50 p.m.
Minutes respectfully submitted by Dina Gipe