Plan Commission Minutes 2002 12-11-02 Page 1 of 12 APPROVED WITH REVISIONS
UNITED CITY OF YORKVILLE
PLAN COMMISSION MEETING
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 11,2002
Chairman Tom Lindblom called the meeting to order at 7 p.m.
ROLL CALL
Members present: Clarence Holdiman, Anne Lucietto, Bill Davis, Brian Schillinger, Jack
Jones, Ted King, Michael Crouch, Andrew Kubala and Tom Lindblom.
Members absent: Kerry Green, Jeff Baker and Sandra Adams.
A quorum was established.
VISITORS
Those who spoke or signed the sign-in sheet were: Richard Nenne, Bristol; Joan
McArthur, Plano; Bob Dauwalder, Yorkville; Dale Woodworth, Yorkville; James
McArthur, Plano; Helen Mitchler, Oswego; Robert Mitchler, Oswego; George Wolf,
Oswego; Tony Scott, Record Newspapers; Richard Young; Rolling Meadows; David
Kiest, Sandwich; John Martin, JenLand Design; Catherine Allen, Naperville; Ed Nestor,
Yorkville; Tom Brown, Oswego; John Philipchuck, George Bossy; W. Joyner; Christ
Lannert; Lynn Dubajic, Yorkville Economic Development Commission; Bill Mikus; Jack
Keck; Jerry Murphy; John Zedler; Art Zwemke, Moser Enterprises, Inc.; Richard
Undesser; Jerry Liefhert; Bob Cowhey; Tom Small; Anne Denovellis, Yorkville; Mollie
Stoerker; Dan Waitt; Gary Taylor; Michael Ferraguto, Ocean Atlantic; Mitch LaFave,
Ocean Atlantic; Dean Kleronomos; Angelo Kleronomos; Daniel Lanoisz, Richard
Scheffrahn; Laura Brown; Bart Olson; Mayor Art Prochaska; Alderman Richard Sticka;
Alderwoman Rose Spears; City Administrator Tony Graff, City Planner Mike Schoppe;
and City Attorney Kelly Kramer.
MINUTES
Minutes from the November 13, 2002 meeting were approved.
PUBLIC HEARINGS
1. PC 2002-06 Westbury Village: Ocean Atlantic, petitioners request to annex and
rezone.
Anne Lucietto made a motion to go to public hearing. Clarence Holdiman seconded the
motion. The motion was unanimously approved by voice vote.
On behalf of the petitioners, Gary Taylor, said that his clients have taken many of the
comments made at the Nov. 13 public hearing to heart and are working on a new concept
plan that the commission may feel is more acceptable.
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He asked that the commission suspend the public hearing and continue it to a date after
Jan. 7.
Rather than holding two meetings in January to accommodate the request, City
Administrator Tony Graff suggested holding one meeting on January 15. The
commissioners seemed agreeable with the suggestion.
Plan Commission Chairman Tom Lindblom asked if there were any comments from the
public. There were none.
Andrew Kubala made a motion to table the public hearing until the Jan. 15 meeting.
Anne Lucietto seconded the motion. The motion was unanimously approved by roll call
vote. Clarence Holdiman, Lucietto, Bill Davis, Brian Schillinger, Jack Jones, Tom Mizel,
Ted King, Michael Crouch, Kubala and Lindblom voted yes.
OLD BUSINESS
1. PC 2001-06 Grande Reserve: MPI petition to annex and rezone.
Art Zwemke, president and CEO of Moser Enterprises, Inc., said that the developers
refined the development plans based on commentary they received at the public hearings
and by the commissioners. He said there are some substantial changes in the plan. For
instance, the developers reworked neighborhoods 1, 2 and 3. They are now in one big
neighborhood instead of in three separate ones.
In another section of the development, the developers thought they could have septic
tanks put in on lots of 18,000 square feet. Since that is not possible, the area in
neighborhoods 21, 22, and 23 have been reconfigured to contain 12,000 square foot lots.
Also, Zwemke said a commercial strip has been added to a five-acre area so that people
can walk to a store to get a loaf of bread.
Specifically, Zwemke said that the abandoned their original plans for neighborhoods 1, 2
and 3 in favor of an undefined type of product to sell to empty nesters. He said they plan
for 340 units on the site, which is the same as what has previously been proposed.
He said that instead of three neighborhoods,the housing units would be put together to
form one community. Zwemke added that the developers feel good about how the
neighborhood has been laid out. He said they revised an earlier sketch because the
developers didn't feel comfortable with homes drawn on the perimeter of the loop road.
Zwemke said the home sites seemed like soldiers standing in a row. They revised the plan
to reduce the radius on the loop road and to minimize the lots on the outside that looked
like soldiers. He said they made what the industry calls eyebrows or a series of small cul-
de-sacs on the outside. He said it is a prototypical design that Jenland Design has had
success with in the past.
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He added that the plan does not call for sidewalks on both sides of the street in the cul-de-
sacs. He said that differs from the city ordinances, which require sidewalks on both sides
of the street.
Zwemke also said they want to promote the fact that there is an abundance of cul-de-sacs
in the neighborhood. He added that the homeowner's association would maintain the cul-
de-sacs.
He added there are always questions about the type of product, which will be built in the
neighborhood. Zwemke said they will be typical ranch and Cape Cod type homes with a
price tag of$200,000 to $250,000.
On the flag lots, or corners of the cul-de-sac, other type of homes would be placed on
them. Zwemke said they don't want ordinary ranch homes on those lots and have them
disoriented.
Zwemke continued by saying the developers believe the buyers of these homes want to
own land. The developers considered a looking at land-lease agreements similar to what
is common in California, but decided against it. This type of buyer doesn't want to lease,
he said. However, he added that they also don't want to own a lot of land. "We think less
is more,"he said.
Zwemke said this type of buyer does not want 10,000 to 12,000 square foot lots. So, the
developers are proposing 15-foot rear yards and 14-foot rather than 20-foot side yards.
Lindblom said he's against side yard setbacks of less than 10 feet. He said it's a safety
issue adding that fire blows out a window less than 20 feet away.
As for the front and back yard setbacks, Lindblom said he understands this type of buyer
would prefer smaller yards.
Zwemke said that there has been no evidence across the country in any study that there is
a greater risk of fire spreading if the homes are closer together.
Lindblom said it scares him to think of a fire department trying to get ladders to the
homes. However, Zwemke said the types of homes planned are not big two-story homes.
He said they ask that the side yards be proportional to the size of the house. He said they
do not intend to compromise safety.
Commissioner Michael Crouch asked what the lot sizes are. Zwemke said the typical lot
sizes are 5,500 to 6,000 square feet.
Crouch then addressed the sidewalk issue. He said the commission has been reluctant to
allow sidewalks on one side of the street unless there is a trail system on the other side.
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Zwemke said that they have planned plenty of sidewalks on the loop road. He asked the
commission to look at a prototypical cul-de-sac. On the interior, he said they're planning
27-foot wide roads since there won't be a lot of traffic on them. The deepest cul-de-sac
would be 300 feet and the typical would be 200 feet, he added.
Commissioner Tom Mizel brought up the issue of liability. He said that while the
roadways are public roads, the homeowner's association would be in charge of plowing
them. He asked what happens if a kid gets hit going to a bus stop. Who gets sued?
City Attorney Kelly Kramer said the city and the developer would probably be sued.
Zwemke said there shouldn't be many children in the area. He added that while they
don't want to go to an age-restricted community, there is a broad market for empty
nesters in the 40s who are either childless or their children are grown.
The developers intend to limit the number of bedrooms in the homes and put other
requirements in place to discourage families with school age children.
Lindblom then suggested the commission move on to discuss other issues of the proposed
development. Commissioner Brian Schillinger said that sidewalks, or lack thereof, would
be a sticky issue. He also said he liked the idea of targeting empty nesters. But said he
wonders what will happen 15 years from now when the plan doesn't work and first-time
homebuyers started buying those homes with the smaller lots. He said the developers
don't have covenants in place to prevent such an occurrence.
Commissioner Jack Jones suggested the developers show the commission a plan of what
the size of the lots would look like with the green space included. He said that what
works in other communities may not work in Yorkville.
Zwemke said the developers want the development to fit in with the community. He said
he'd like the commissioners to keep their minds open. Administratively, they think it's
easier to have a short rear yard and have the homeowners' association pick it up.
Schillinger said he didn't think that the front and rear yard setbacks would be a huge
issue. He said side yards are an issue. Also, in order to walk out of a house and get to a
trail or a main sidewalk without walking on the streets is another issue, he said.
He added that they are trying to work within the new comprehensive plan and that they
are well within the 3.5 units per acre allowed in the plan.
He also asked the commissioners to take into consideration that the developers took and
improved the land plan from the original plan of 340 units to 290. He said they would get
back to the commission on covenants and lot sizes.
Lindblom asked when this phase would be built as opposed to the rest of the
development. He said if this is the first, there are limited roadways going in.
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Zwemke said there are three different sanitary systems they're dealing with throughout
the development. The sanitary line that services this property is the Mill Street
interceptor. He said they could start development in this phase early, but there's no water.
The water would have to come in first.
What could happen is that there could be developments in a couple of areas. One of the
stipulations the commission could add when they come back for final plat is that there are
entrances to the neighborhoods. He added that this is a unique development because of
the size and the number of different product types. What they hope to do in the
annexation agreement is to cover as many things as they possibly can think of, but they
don't know what the market is going to be five to 10 years from now. However, he said
they would address as many of those issues as they can.
Crouch commented that the side yards are too close. He also said he did not like the idea
of guest parking in the cul-de-sacs saying it could be a problem if there is significant
snow.
Zwemke said parking should not be a problem. He said the reason they put eight parking
spaces on the bulb is there is not a lot of radius on the curb. In this case, he said they have
pavement when they can put snow in the instance of heavy snowfalls. Also, he said there
are two parking spaces in front of every house.
City Planner Mike Schoppe said if there is something fundamentally wrong with the
concept,to let him know. As for design standard issues, those can be worked out at a later
time.
Crouch said he shares Schillinger's concerns about what may happen 15 years down the
road with families moving into the homes. He said if there were a better way to enforce
it, he would feel more comfortable. Eliminating basketball hoops and swing sets will not
dissuade people with young children from purchasing the homes, he said.
Zwemke asked that the commission let the developers work on the covenants to create
something that will work well.
Commissioner Andrew Kubala said he likes the layout of the plan. However, he too said
he does not see any way it could be enforced in the future to guarantee it won't become
an entry-level home market.
Regarding other areas of the planned development, Zwemke said the neighborhoods with
lots of 18,000 square feet would be serviced by wells and septics. He said there are new
standards in Kendall County. The developers asked the county to look at a prototype on
community well systems, but the county didn't know if the state would approve it.
Zwemke added they have talked with the staff and mayor about considering different
school sites, possibly one off Kennedy Road closer to town. He said they also spoke with
School Superintendent Dr. Engler. They put together Exhibit 9. He asked the
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commissioners to set aside the annexation for a moment to look at the area near Bristol
Ridge Road out to Route 47. He said there's an 800-foot deep slot near Route 47 for
commercial and that extends into the Hinsdale Nursery property. He said they were asked
to take a look at how the streets hook up when considering the other developments
coming to town. Zwemke said they have an entrance off Bristol Ridge Road and said that
road could be a minor collector along Route 34. He said they would get from Kennedy to
Route 34 by extending Lillian Lane.
By moving the school site, Zwemke said there are only 24 acres of buildable land. So
they are meeting with the owners of Hinsdale Nursery to involve them in the process.
What they've come up with is a 65-acre campus on high and dry land that would be
partially on MPI land and partially on the Hinsdale Nursery property.
He said they haven't talked to the school district yet about the proposal, but the
developers believe it could work. He said there's a buffer of open space behind it that
would be nice.
The next part of the equation was what the census of school-age children in the area
would be once the other developments are built. He said there might be a need for
another elementary school between Bristol Ridge Road and Route 47. At Lillian and
Kennedy they have a 15-acre elementary site. That is in addition to the elementary site
already proposed between neighborhoods 13 and 20. He believes this is good logical
planning of a major area and joining the pieces together.
As for neighborhoods 21, 22 and 23, if they're not on septic, he thinks they could go to
the Yorkville-Bristol Sanitary District.
When asked how many home sites are in the area, Zwemke said there would be 1371
including existing and planned subdivisions. MPI would add more than 200 home sites.
In all the developments would bring about 750 schoolchildren.
Lindblom said he likes this school campus plan much better than the former plan. He
likes that the schools would be near a conservation area and not railroad tracks.
Zwemke said speaking of the conservation area, he said there are some real opportunities
for the city to get some grant money from the state. Taking a long-term view, if there was
a separate donation from MPI to the city or from MPI to a conservation trust such as
Corelands that would be separate, more funding could be available.
If they were to exclude 88.5 acres for the petition and still donate it as planned, the
density of the project would go from 2.35 to 2.55. It's still the same land use and nothing
changes. But a strategic plan could be put into place to possibly gain some funding. He
asked how the commission would feel about it.
Lindblom said if they could make it work, that would be fine.
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Zwemke said there are generally two pots of funding available from time to time, one is
for buying land and another is for improving it. Crouch said he would like to see it in
writing what the intention is of the developer.
One man who lives in the River Ridge Subdivision who attended the meeting asked what
would be going behind his house. Zwemke said the homes west of River Ridge and out to
47 are either residential homes on 12,000 square foot lots or town homes.
Before closing his portion of the presentation, Zwemke brought up an issue on Page 7 of
the city's subdivision standards. He asked that the city revisit some of its standards. He
said the standards are not unreasonable. However, he said the standard for duplex home
sites state that the lots must be 15,000 square feet. Driving around town, he said he hasn't
seen any two-story duplexes, he's seen a lot of ranch duplexes. That lot size seems
reasonable for ranch-style duplexes. However, he'd like to put in the PUD that the lots
could be 10,000 square feet with a width of 75 feet.
He said he'd like to be able to work with the city's staff and go though each of these
types of requirements.
Also, regarding Exhibit 12, Zwemke said he'd like to reiterate where they started and
where he plan is now. He said they originated with 2,804 sites and 2,245 school age
children. Now as the plan has evolved, there are 2,650 sites with a density of 2.35 units
per acre and two possible school campuses. If both campuses occur,the unit count would
drop to 2,360.
He added he would like to be on the Jan. 15 agenda.
2. PC 2002-24 Yorkville Senior Apartments: Community Development Partners,
Inc. petition to amend annexation agreement.
Lindblom said that the petitioners were not prepared to move forward with the project at
this time.
NEW BUSINESS
2. PC 2002-25 Daniel Lanoisz, petitioner, requesting 1.5-mile review for Kendall
County Special Use for a garden center for property located at 10701 Route 71.
Daniel Lanoisz said the proposed garden center is located in the building where D&H Ag
is. He said the center wouldn't carry stones or brick. It would carry plants, annual,
perennials, mulch and soils.
Kubala asked what is on the property now. Lanoisz said D&H Ag is there, but the
business does not occupy the entire building.
Commissioner Anne Lucietto said she thinks it is a fine proposal. She added she would
not like to see the business carry any of the heavy stuff.
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Lucietto moved to recommend the county allow the special use with a stipulation that the
business will not carry heavy stones or brick. Crouch seconded the motion. The motion
was unanimously approved by roll call vote. Holdiman, Lucietto, Davis, Jones, Mizel,
King, Crouch, Kubala, and Lindblom voted yes. Schillinger abstained.
3. PC2002-26 Rose Hill: Property Concepts, Inc., petitioners, request 1.5-mile
review of preliminary plat of subdivision requesting Kendall County RPD-2.
Dean Kleronomos said the proposed development is on 98 acres. He said the planned
subdivision would house 57 lots on 98 acres. There is about 41 acres of open space. The
lots would be 30,000 square feet or larger.
He said the subdivision is contiguous on two sides with Fields of Farm Colonies. To the
north is the original Farm Colony. He added that all of the road improvements around the
proposed development are already in place.
Kubala asked why there isn't access to Minkler Road. Kleronomos said there is a desire
to get traffic out of Hill Top and to Route 71 as quickly as possible. He said the township
supervisors made the recommendation. The road commissioners would rather have traffic
go to Route 71.
Kleronomos added that all of the open space is on least desirable ground and that the
building pads are on the best part of the site.
In response to a comment from Lindblom, Kleronomos said he's met with City Engineer
Joe Wywrot regarding his comments.
Schoppe said the lot size versus the open space is justifiable. He said the city
recommends a 50-foot front yard setback.
Kleronomos said the reason they want 30-foot setbacks is to maximize the savannahs on
the property. However, he said the setbacks would be greater than 50 feet on some lots.
He said they want to give maximum area for septic fields.
Kleronomos also said the trails would connect to the trails of the Inland trails and the
pavement widths will match.
When asked about the length of cul-de-sacs, Schoppe said that from the city's perspective
there is no concern. He also said there is a large open space in the middle of the project.
He said if that open space was open to view from the roadway, it would be more
advantageous to the development. He suggested the developers move lot 47 to make the
open space available.
Kleronomos said they did that to take advantage of the buildable ground.
Jones said he does not like the 30-foot front yard setbacks. He also said he'd like to see
some staggering in the streetscape.
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Crouch asked how many lots would have 30-foot setbacks. Kleronomos said they haven't
totaled the numbers because the issue just came up. He added he was reticent to say how
many lots could go to 50 feet until the soil reports come in.
Lucietto made a motion to recommend acceptance of PC2002-26 to the county subject to
concerns expressed in memos dated in November by Wywrot and Schoppe. Crouch
seconded the motion. The motion was unanimously approved in a roll call vote. Lucietto,
Davis, Schillinger, Jones, Mizel, King, Crouch, Kubala, Lindblom and Holdiman voted
yes.
4. PC2002-27 Fisher Property: Kimball Homes, petitioners, request concept plan
review rezoning from Kendall County Agricultural to United City of Yorkville R-2
PUD.
Richard Young said the property consists of about 300 acres at the northwest corner of
Cannonball Trail and Faxon Road. He said the developers are proposing two different
single-family detached programs. In the two traditional neighborhoods there would be
about 300 lots with lot sizes of 12,000 square feet and the front-yard setbacks would be
50 feet.
They're also introducing a product similar to the villa product discussed by the MPI
project. Young said the lots would have an envelope around them. They would not be
targeted to an age-restricted user. They would be single-family detached homes with a
different type of a lot configuration. They would have a traditional 30-foot front yard, 30-
foot rear yard and 10-foot side yard. That would be an envelope where the buyers could
purchase a maintenance package along with the home. With the envelope, the lots would
be about 9,000 square feet.
He said the developers met with the Park Board to discuss open space options. They also
would like to include a trail system. He said Park Board would like to see the 10-acre
open space area close to Faxon Road so that it could be more of a regional park facility.
He added the developers have not met with the School District yet.
Young said that they want to see if the city would entertain the idea of the second type of
product as an option to the traditional single-family lot.
When asked by Lindblom about the city standards, Schoppe said the zoning standards
don't make reference to the types of homes. He said the standard lot size is 12,000 square
feet.
Young said they're in proposing the villa-type product;they are trying to come up with a
transition from the single-family home to M1.
Kubala said the conceptual plan is good. The transition from M1 to residential is okay.
However, he is concerned about the roadway and the number of errors in the drawing.
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HE said there is no school site in Kylyn's Ridge subdivision. Also, the subdivision
marked Kylyn's Ridge in the drawing is actually Cannonball Estates. Kylyn's Ridge has
a road called High Ridge Lane that goes into the turn the developers are proposing for
Faxon Road. He said that's a bad traffic situation.
Young said he was trying to reflect what was in the city's transportation plan for the
future. He said he made the drawing at the suggestion of city staff.
Conceptually, he said the roadway is not in the right location, City Administrator Tony
Graff said. He added that Smith Engineering is working to put together an alignment for
Faxon Road.
Lucietto said that because there is R3 zoning down by Kennedy Road, she would be leery
about purring transitional zoning on the property because the existing property owners
would not like to see the transitional zoning.
Crouch added that the developers might want to consider putting a school site on the
property. He said that any development should have a school site. He said if there were
20 acres available, the School District would rather have the land than the cash.
Schoppe added that there more than likely will be at least an elementary school site south
of Faxon Road. Any site north of Faxon would be another matter.
Graff said that Oswego's park and ride has been approved. In the next few years, the city
will look at applying for Metra Site for the area. The transitional zoning that Young is
proposing will go more toward the type of housing the park and ride might attract.
Schoppe asked if the commissioners were comfortable with the 9,000 square foot lots.
Jones said that they really don't like the smaller lots, but they are acceptable if they back
up to open space.
Schoppe said he's looking for transitional land use. He said it's not the same as the
transitional area in the comprehensive plan.
Crouch said there is no minimum lot size under the R3 zoning that addresses single-
family detached products. He asked if it is something the city needs to consider.
Schoppe said yes that should be considered and the city's zoning ordinance could be
amended to address it.
Young asked the commission if the concept would be something it could consider. If so,
he said he will bring back more information. He said he imagines it as a cluster-type of
design with open space that meanders through the development.
Lucietto said they would need to see what the developers could come up with and go
from there.
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5. PC200-28 Runge Property: Kenneth Neumann and F&S, LLC, petitioners,
request concept plan review rezoning from Kendall County Agricultural to United
City of Yorkville commercial, single-family and multi-family residential.
George Bossy said Mid-America is a commercial shopping center developer. He said this
property of 150 acres is located at the southwest corner of Route 47 and Route 30. The
property is more than what they could use for commercial development, so they added
the residential component.
He said they've talked to a number of builders about taking over the residential aspect of
the proposed project and everyone is interested in coming to Yorkville. But before they
take the next step,they want the city's input.
So far, the only thing they've done is stick to the city's codes regarding density. He said
the draft is a very primitive scale of what they intend to do.
Kubala said the park space seems real small. Bossy said they would comply with
whatever the city's needs are.
Lindblom asked how they would deal with the creek on the property. With the creek in
the property, all of the traffic would have to go on Baseline Road.
Graff said that would need to be addressed. He said the city is working with IDOT and
the flood plain study. He added they would have to come up with an idea for some access
points across the creek. Hopefully, he said they have the cooperation of property owners.
He added that the city has told the petitioners that they don't have the answers yet.
Conceptually, he said he thinks they can work it out.
Bossy said he doesn't think it is an insurmountable problem and that he's looking
forward to working with the city.
Resident Jerry Murphy asked if it was too early to ask what kind of commercial use
would be coming.
Bossy said they try to look three to four years ahead. He said they'll have a major anchor,
but they're not sure yet what that anchor would be.
Bossy added that he residential development would come before the commercial
development. He anticipates the homes will run in the range of$250,000 to $300,000 and
the multi-family or town homes would run in the range of$150,000 to $170,000.
Lindblom said he doesn't see any initial problems.
In other business, Mayor Art Prochaska commented that the City Council would look at
plans to take Countryside Parkway across the Fox River.
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The meeting adjourned at 9:45 p.m.
Minutes respectfully submitted by Dina Gipe
Revisions by Jackie Milschewski, City Clerk